Scaling One of India’s most successful Hyperlocal Startups

Title Image for episode with Anshoo Sharma of Magic Pin
Anshoo Sharma of Magic Pin

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Hype around Hyper-Local

Magic Pin’s Anshoo Sharma has managed to do the impossible. He has managed to found and scale a hyperlocal startup in spite of the existence of the FAANG giants. The Indian Startup eco-system saw heady days in the years 2014 and 2015. India ranked 3rd in the global list of startup hubs with close to 5,000 startups registered startups. The Unofficial number was higher. Larger amounts of capital, the boom in smartphones, and a returning diaspora of Indians created an active ecosystem of startups.

Bad roads, poor infrastructure, and floating executive population pools fueled hyperlocal an immense amount of interest and funding into hyperlocal startups. These include groceries to fashion to medical care, startups promised and for the most part, delivered these things to the homes of customers. Billions of $ of funding poured into these startups.

With the craze for e-commerce booming, online players gave stiff competition to the large offline shopping world of restaurants, fashion stores, ice cream parlors. The large offline gasped for air and business. Startups that promised the discovery of exciting new players were founded and raised millions of $ of founding.

Check out another Social Commerce Story: Neha Suyal of Woovly in Episode 45 of Season 1

These startups aggregated stores and brought local businesses and merchants onto the platform. These startups saw a high fatality as copies mushroomed and competition intensified. Giants such as Flipkart, Amazon also jostled and hastened the death of such platforms only to abandon this space later. Magic Pin is one of the few companies to be standing tall in this pile. How did Magic Pin’s Anshoo Sharma and his team accomplish this?

From Bain to VC Funding to Entrepreneurship

Anshoo Sharma joined Bain Consulting in Boston and cut his teeth in the world of management consulting. Anshoo moved to India when Bain opened an office and soon moved to the emerging world of Venture Capital. After watching startups rise and fall, he was itching to start one himself. He teamed up with one of his buddies and soon they launched Magic Pin in the world of Hyper-Local in the year 2015.

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You’ll love this earlier episode with Neha Suyal of Woovly

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Why is Magic Pin still standing where others have disappeared?

Magic Pin’s Anshoo Sharma and his team had a clear agenda and goal from the beginning. Their goal was to build a startup in the hyperlocal space. One that would help users and customers discover new and exciting places. Their scientific and growth-oriented approach is the key success ingredient. They launched a series of growth hacks that helped them gather accurate data that enabled them to drive traffic to offline stores.

The Magic Pin Team

One of their first growth hacks – selfies in front of coffee day stores garnered 100K responses. Tasting first blood early, they went for the kill and methodically implemented their growth plan. Today, Magic Pin has emerged as an exciting player in the Hyper-Local space and one of the few in its categories to be standing. How did Magic Pin’s Anshu Sharma pull this off? What were their growth hacks and tactics? We go deep in this episode and bring it all to you on a platter.

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​Episode Transcript

(Automated Transcript)

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

offline, point, india, fact, building, business, happen, magic, users, lightspeed, merchant, bain, started, discovery, company, part, piece, called, data, transactions

SPEAKERS

Anshoo Sharma, Krishna Jonnakadla

Anshoo Sharma  00:00

But I would say in general, like we felt we had a game on hand right off the bat as people. The first thing to know is would we get data? Right? Would people share content? Right? Would people share those receipts or selfies experiment that happened, and that was a runaway success. With that kind of traction, we knew we could mold, right? People are responding, right? The audience in our country, they want to absorb more, right? They're just hungry for more options, ideas, like eventually, what is magic can write in a way. RTG is very honest, if

00:31

I was a VC, I wouldn't have funded myself, like it has how bad the presentation was, you know, to build scale, you have to think sometimes I think too much of money restricts innovation, I think that's the sad part, Destiny finds you on the role that you take to avoid it. Whenever you get a seat on a rocket ship, you don't ask which we will see, we actually asked ourselves, like too many questions in terms of how big can we get? It was very, very hard to explain what is UGC? If you want to implement something first 31 million to 10 million it will scale. But again, you know, we had basic teams struggle, struggle, struggle, but every day was just learning, which was just amazing.

Krishna Jonnakadla  01:10

Listen to founders about their stories, and how they build their startups. Here on Maharaja of scale with me, your host, Krishna Jonnakadla, co founder of mango mobile TV and Bob. Hey, everyone, this is Krishna Jonnakadla, your host from Maharaja of scale. Today, I have the privilege of hosting unshiu of magic when it's a startup in a venture that I have talked about quite a bit in my own interactions with a lot of entrepreneurs. And I will tell you, as we progress through this recording why I do that. For those of you who haven't who don't know what magic pin is, if you're in the younger audience you possibly already know, magic pin makes it exciting to discover happening places around the city And better yet gives you cash backs and rewards for you to actually go out to those businesses and do business with them. Right. It sounds magical. I'm sure that's the reason they chose magic pin. And I'm sure Welcome to the show. Thank you, Krishna. Good to be here. Awesome. So tell us a little bit about yourself. And what are you working on right now?

Anshoo Sharma  02:31

Yeah, so let me tell you about magic pen. First, just building on what you said. I'd say we are at one and a growth driver for our partners, retailers large small across categories food, fashion, electronics, Crossley, online, offline, walk into their store or get something home delivered. And on the other hand to our consumers. We are, I would say the number one app for providing savings. Number one specially in the context of offline retail, which is so hard to map. But as technology is growing as our world is becoming more digital, right? The the offline part of the world is also coming online. So number one, to that extent and discovery is kind of embedded. For the longest of time. We used to say discovery app for mobile, we realize people don't get it value. So we stopped saving discovery they do anyway. And they come on.

Krishna Jonnakadla  03:26

Yeah, I know. The funny thing is discovery. Possibly they are thinking about Discovery Channel and then National Geographic discovery. Getting getting that copywriting right, especially in the way a consumer or a user would understand is one of the hardest challenges any startup goes through in the beginning. Awesome. So tell us about your yourself. How did you? Yeah, a little more about your background.

Anshoo Sharma  03:55

Yeah. So let me start with magic. And then I'll go back for the last six years now. We've been added with magic pin. Prior to that, I'd spend another six years with lightspeed Venture Partners. I was in fact, part of the founding team for lightspeed in India. And this is late 2009 that I joined lightspeed. And it was six years that I was there. I was part of around 10 investments that we did that. The first one is now a publicly listed company. It's called Indian energy. It's in the beautiful country. And then over the over the course that I spent time there, did those investments. I was just completely, I'd say, kicked about the opportunity to build a business we on the other side of it. I'll talk more about what I learned at lightspeed in a bit. Going back further. I was I spent four years with Bain and company. I started with Bain in the Boston office. This is 2006 early 2006 and I subsequently came to India as a in the office of Bain was getting set up, and then spent enough time to the point. I was fascinated by getting closer to entrepreneurship, though didn't have the courage to go all the way. So went to the next step, which was investing. That's that. And then prior to that I had done my B school from my memoir, and before that for three years, I was speaking cytec. I was at Motorola and what was then known as you Sophos is, in fact, the itch to build something carried on from those days, which is bnb. And then, in a way, I would say, I was, I was fortunate to find the right set of things coming together, to transition out from being an investor, to being someone who's trading, which I have thoroughly enjoyed.

Krishna Jonnakadla  05:49

Wow, so huge software, and which was an entrepreneurial organization itself. They, those guys had a bit of a culture, at least in the US side of the world.

Anshoo Sharma  06:03

Yeah, yes. HSS a very strong way to think there's 2000 Yeah, so that was that was my dream company graduating.

Krishna Jonnakadla  06:11

Yeah. And for those for listeners who don't know, Hugh software, it's one of the creations of Howard Hughes, which is portrayed by Leonardo DiCaprio in that movie, The Aviator. Right. And then from heussaff, to ima. And I'm a right I'm at the bottom. That's

Anshoo Sharma  06:29

correct. That's good. How did you end up I'd pay from from A to B. Oh, oh, you

Krishna Jonnakadla  06:34

campus recruit? Yes.

Anshoo Sharma  06:36

Yes. Yes. been recruiting for, for its global offices at that point in time. They didn't have an India office set up yet. But they had in their mind that they would want to put together in the office at some point. So the year I joined,

Krishna Jonnakadla  06:50

I joined in Boston. Dude, I mean, pain in Boston. Boston is a flagship location for Bain, isn't it? Yeah, it's HQ. It's a Google HQ. Right. And then do you ever run into Mitt Romney? No, I did not. I heard a lot about it. I didn't. I know I'm, I mean, awesome. This is amazing pedigree. I remember, you are another after Ashish Kashyap of goibibo. Who was on our podcast about 20 episodes ago. Yeah, I think with us, and I am a and then Bain and being in the new office of pain. And then, lightspeed ventures. Most people would actually say, as soon as, as soon as they landed at Bain Boston Bay in Boston, Massachusetts, who said live one year.

Anshoo Sharma  07:41

It was It is quite amazing. In fact, the when we connect the dots and all of these places, to some extent, sure, between between Hughes and Bain, and I'm the path there was also Motorola that spent two years at us. I really loved the word, right? We are building products for Voice over IP converged networks. That's what will happen in 2001. I started, in fact, a file a payment by latitudes. But the do is I spent, there was a little bit of this, I think it got figured out, right, I knew what I had to do. And that's why I was curious what next and I joined Motorola at that point in time. So I moved out from Delhi, which my hometown, where I studied, where I did my first job, I joined Motorola and Banggood largely out of Okay, what what else right. And Motorola was also great experience we did, I did some more Voice over IP, paid products. But one thing that hit me when I was out of home for the first time and I was not in hostel at any point in time, right, I realized the biggest thing to figure out is you have to think of your food three times in a day, that was a neutron result. But the year I spent with Motorola and Bangalore, one thing, which I got certain off is that, you know, building things is one, but I was missing this higher context that what what else can one do to break out? And in your office, Motorola's actually they are was very empowered. So a lot of work was being done out of this office. But this opportunity to get a more of a generalist scope versus being more of a developer, right? That was very exciting. And that's how I ended up being at in the band. And in fact, when I was at in the bath, I was quite, I was almost like, I could see the code running in the matrix almost right? I could see like a theory of olika p&l right. And I never thought of such things in the past. I was very happy doing what I was doing. closed and make sense to me before that I started to make sense, okay, this is these are what the numbers mean. And then subsequently, getting into pain was probably another great learning experience because b school teaches a lot of baseline. When you work with real businesses, look at their problem, right? I that was that was interesting look doing that in in us than doing that in India. I was quite fascinated by At some point, once you've done something enough number of times it starts to saturate. And that's what I said that Bane also, it's great. And I love the people at Bain. I've got so many people connected with us even at magic fin today. But I said, I want to be closer to building something, which I said in the past was I did not know what it was. And what I could find was the next best thing, which was to build a business in the business of investing. And I met basil at that point in time, he just joined the lightspeed office, and he was looking at very loud reading. And I would say, I was I was to begin with white, conservative, Vc 2009. And I started the conversation fairly early, right? It's, it's just very early, right? Like an in a consulting firm, you got to track and everything and you'd say, okay, like, do I want to do something, which is so different than what's being done. But I'm glad I took that decision. At that point in time. I finished the time at being at a high got into lightspeed. 2009. Tech was very early in India, but the kick about saying, Okay, let's find opportunities that can give venture like returns. That was very exciting. I remember my initial days, we would spend time with microfinance companies, because that was something as close as you can get to ensure like returns. But subsequently, more technology things happened. And I'm glad that they happen. And in the six years that I spent there, I love that journey. And six is also enough time in our VC business. It's not less, it's not more, it's enough to see the cycle complete. It is in the the investments you made, right, how they've done it. That's what I'm talking about. Indian energy exchange is the first company that we invested in that went public. And I felt that, that if I want to go out and do something, then this might be a good time I'm I'm anyway, taking that bet with my career that we see is also exposes exposed to the same startup ecosystem as an entrepreneur. But I can hedge my risk to an extent, right, which is also very satisfying and risk adjusted, probably higher payoff. But if I think about, I don't need to adjust the risk. If I'm passionate about building something, and I believe there's so much that's going to happen, then it was a matter of finding the right team and the right opportunity. And that's how I would say magic pin happened that we could get some of those pieces to converge. And then I could work. So this constant theme was the same what else right, what can be interesting. I don't need to worry about worry about like creating more baselines, we have to create about creating more upside, right? Where does that come from? And not out of a bar. I'm saying this in a very more financial kind of way, really, but the way I was thinking more about if I don't have to worry about anything, what would I go out and do let me go out and do that. That's why all these transitions happen. Yeah,

Krishna Jonnakadla  12:57

Maslow's hierarchy of needs. The self actualization? Absolutely. Right? What's family is family professional Mom, dad.

Anshoo Sharma  13:09

No, I I do have a family now. Which is, of course, my mom, my wife, we have two kids is now seven and 11.

Krishna Jonnakadla  13:22

Were parents professionals, or were they in business?

Anshoo Sharma  13:25

No professional. My my dad was. In fact, he was amongst the early folks to use technology. I remember very early in my life, I must have been 18 years old. He was interviewed and data twice that used to be the big thing then.

Krishna Jonnakadla  13:41

I mean, the magazine Yeah. Yeah, I know that magazine. Yeah. PC quest and then data quest. Yeah.

Anshoo Sharma  13:47

Yeah. So yeah. So he was a professional. Unfortunately, we lost him very early on when I was 10 we lost him. So then my mom was in a in a you know, government and taking organization and yeah, and they are not very different story right. Middle Class group grew in Delhi as locals went to a decent school there for school and in integrative part, yeah. And then from there onwards, I would say scoring was was quite I would say, okay, like not not much happening kind of do the drill. The action started to happen once I got into college and then I think then things started to open up and I got to see along

Krishna Jonnakadla  14:27

so deliver it or no, I went to Delhi University and your engineering graduate or a four year degree in Computer Science from Delhi University. Okay, yeah. So that's that's where the tryst with us and motor Yeah,

Anshoo Sharma  14:42

yeah, that's that yeah. So he was was the placement from Delhi University. And in fact, computers were itself right before going to college. I had not interacted with computers at all. So do I suppose. Once I got in, I I loved it. I thought and I spent the four years there really building so much of And by the time it the thing came about, okay, what would you like to do? And I'd done a bunch of thing that I was fortunate to find a bunch of similar minded people, right? Who will think a little bit in the opposite direction to things. I remember this this term around ethical hacking. I said, I used to do a lot of that in

Krishna Jonnakadla  15:19

AI. I used to think I'm a chartered accountant. And in fact, if you're describing the same module office, though, I think that's the one on also wrote in. That's right. Yeah, I know it very well, because I around 2000 2001, Motorola hired hived off the semiconductor unit into what is called as on semi and I was the auditor for on semi I remember coming in to the office multiple times. And just to talk to the head that was running that operation just to discuss, you know, accounts and then finalizing stuff like that. So I'm, and my office was just a stone's throw away from the ultra road office. Our office was an answer road as well. So the funny thing is, when on semi was happening, and this was still the although the.com bust had, you know, just just happened, there's still so much excitement about tech and internet. Yeah. And Cisco, at that point in time, which was blazing was talking about building the Cisco city. And Motorola was talking about building a Motorola city. And I used to joke to my colleagues, I think all the dystopian futures. future that we see even Terminator Rise of the Machines, I think we will soon not have costs anymore. And then we'll say will, the Cisco guy will get married to a Motorola, Motorola. So they will compare companies and then the cities that the companies are founded in. And I would imagine all of that. And one of the accountants there the girl that was heading up finance I would describe, I think her name was Deepa, I would tell Deepa, this sounds so dystopian. I don't want to build. I don't want to live in a city where I'm seeing the same guys that I'm working from morning till night. On the left to my neighbor, he would have in the neighboring cubicle is the guy who's actually who lives next to me. It sounds so boring. And she used to say, Krishna, I think you're imagining a too far out future. I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon. And life has discontinuities. But yeah, I, I could definitely see the path. And around that was around the time I had founded my first startup as well. But amazing, the bane part. So I'm just thinking, when it comes to consulting, and I spent I was in KPMG, consulting, so I know that my boss, they're actually in the other firm, used to say, consulting is the place where you start getting comfortable with two things. One is uncertainty. And the other one is scales. Right? And because one is uncertainty, you many times your brief changes, the brief that you actually start with, and then what you discover once you start digging in your changes. And the second thing that you start seeing is the chaos that most organizations are, you know, constantly in. Yeah. And you're, you're actually once you get in, you're asking yourself, geez, what, why did they engage us, they seem to know all of this stuff themselves. And then, if you if you've read this book called witch doctors, there is a joke about McKinsey. And then the famous phrase is that consultants are people who steal your watch and tell you the time. So but but but they actually don't tell you why that happens, because organizations internally, they know what they want. It's just that they want an external entity and objective entity to come in actually endorse that point of view. That's actually the service the consultant or the consulting firm is actually doing and Nobody does it better than Bain because Bain is from from its genesis, it has refused to work with anyone other than the chief executive of the company. So they don't sell to anybody other than the CEO. As far as you know, my, my knowledge goes so amazing. And talk, talk about your lightspeed time. And because 2000 I think India had one bout of startup frenzy, which was the late 90s the.com era. And then everybody and his dad started a website at that point in time, and then even now, it happens, everybody and his dad, just what they fill in the blanks, you know, that just changes according to my father, a fashion of the day. And then you had a little bit before that before the 2008 crisis. People would start it service, they would start testing from they would start. I would I would be bored out of hell, because I used to run a consulting division within an IT services company. And then people would come and say, I'm starting a testing firm. Why in the world would you start testing for due dates? Even if you make two or $3 million out of it, it's a dead end. It's it's there's no excitement in in that thing. You're not building anything. And I would see SWAT sense also people do it. And I would say this is not for me. There was there was many a time where I could just get into staffing, recruitment, that kind of stuff and maybe make a half a million. But I, I had the same itch that you have, which is to create something. So I never, I constantly kept creating something. And one of them succeeded. And you know, that journey is long. So talk about the lightspeed type, because it is 2009. It happened right after the 2008 financial crisis. Yeah, although in the Western media, it's headed up as the worst financial crisis after the Great Depression. I mean, I've lived through that I lived in the US at that time. Mainly Main Street other than Occupy Wall Street, Main Street, almost came out unscathed. Two or three years later, a lot of it got to do with quantitative easing, which the US fed did. Don't worry about the technicalities of that. So what I mean is, once you were halfway into President Obama's term, which is 2008, he got elected by around 2010, the US economy was back at a faster clip than it ever was. So how, and I don't know, maybe it's a time bomb ticking. So when you moved back to India, talk about why you moved back to India, that was one because you barely spent like, what, four years in vain. And you possibly were just getting your feet wet? Maybe you're on fast track to becoming a partner. And then the perks there of being a partner are really good, right? I mean, yachts and charter charter flights, and then working with cxos. I know it all looks glamorous from the outside, but it has its own internal non works. So how did why did you move back to India? And then in the aftermath of the financial crisis, how, and given that there wasn't really much happening on the startup scene, like, why did you decide to jump into VC venture?

Anshoo Sharma  22:39

Yeah, yeah, I think there are quite a few things you've asked. So let me unpack them. And maybe in journalism, I moved back to India in 2007, after spending the last year and a half after I'd been in the Boston office. For me, part of it was, you know, always the plan, right. Wayne was going to set up in India, as the office got set up, there was an opportunity to go back, I've In fact, right, at the same time, even for my own preferences, even in fact, you know, even when I was going to be school, I remember one of the conversations I had these these admits from different schools, right. I remember one of the case studies I had, having spent time at Ford Motor life was an idea, which was like run an app on your smartphone, which will let you do Voice over IP calls. So this piece about wanting to create something very cool and interesting. And I realized that, that doing that in us is great. But my network and people who I know people who know me, right, I felt that there is a there's a to an extent, a fair bit of rewiring that needs to be done. And I was passionate about what India can do still am and the opportunities that exist here the problems that can you solve it. So it was an organic path. In fact, my wife had a job there. And we had this choice that which which way should we go on that? And she she was kind enough to say, Okay, let's go in that direction. So we she left her job, we came back to India. In fact, the US company that you that the letter set up the India office, because she was and that for some time, but that was a decision wanting to be here and defined structure for being here. I'd also done a fair bit of time in the private equity ring fence, as they call it in pain. There's a lot of action in us and in India. In fact, when I came in private equity was really hot. And I was in that like from case to case I was moving every four weeks, literally like we'd move from one case to another case, and it'll always be one of the three things you need to believe in to make this investment either. I really believe by aside from when asked us that question. We'll do the work. We'll be smart about it. Come down to the answer on this. What matters is what's our view on it? Of course, not our interest. With their investment. But having done that a few times, and then you know that that financial disaster that happened that happened, and a lot of the private equity work went away. Instead, we now had clients, which were more of corporate clients, consumer, retail, Telecom, all of these guys at that point, you know, all of this bidding for 3g, etc, without me so I did a fair bit of work in that area. And all of that was good. What I was missing on all of that was to an extent, you know, this, this piece of saying something, but then just moving on from there, right, and then something and then moving on from there, like, to me I wanted, that is you're building something is not getting scratched, right. So and this is his, I love the people at Bain, the general bar of quality of on everything, literally, what I was missing this, to that extent, this way of saying, okay, I want to build something. And that's the point in time when I met vision. And as I mentioned, like, and he put it that way, also, we are a business, that we are a startup in the business of investing, right, and that that was quite inspiring. And to me, it was at least coming one step closer to I don't know, what I want to do is 2009 still right, very early days, not a lot happening from a tech point of view. But I knew I had very firm belief tech would happen, voting will happen. lightspeed had already made a couple of investments in India, they were warming up to the idea. And if tech mattered, right, then this is a good way to come closer to the action when I don't really know what it is. That was my entry point. Of course, once I came in, I forgot about all of that, because there's just so much action, and the business of investing in the business by itself. So getting to know people, it is very early days, you know, like the number of funds that existed where minimal opportunities were there, but very far and few. In fact, I remember my first day at lightspeed, we'd gone to meet Dinesh at India, Mark swastik. And at that point, you know, very early days very hard to see, of course, then he went on to build a great company, I feared that company, but very early to see that I think a lot of what happened in the Indian internet ecosystem happened over the next decade from there, so not 2009. But when you look at 2009 2019, a lot that was there, in the early days of that I remember, work doing a lot of work on microfinance, just lending businesses, they're still hot that a lot of them are called FinTech now, but they're still very interesting from a business point of view. I remember a fair amount of work even in ABC, kind of which is just like execution work, right? A lot of working capital, no margins, and then should part happen. Right? Like then what happened, then more of this started to happen. And of course, the market suddenly just heats up like anything, right? And we are being lightspeed, right? Like we are way off. And we are the lightspeed is one firm, right? So same fund was being deployed out of us and out of India. So the way to think of a firm in terms of what's the CAC, what's the lifetime value, like the same concepts existed very strongly, and Indian companies are not up to the market says very early in the market, right to be able to see. So now in hindsight, I feel that you know, we were putting too harsh a lens on a market that is too early, the broad strokes were there. So we probably missed out on some of those opportunities, which are interesting. At the same time, we find found our own set of opportunities, right. Indian energy exchange is one of them. We were the first financial investors, capital, very capital intensive, in general. That's what the power sector is. But we could find a very asset light way to build that. And that company did well went on to IPO. There were more investments that happened. Because you had come back to the question you asked me, right, why? Why us to India, why baint lightspeed? I think some of those, I just thought, right, that's how those funds.

Krishna Jonnakadla  28:48

Amazing, amazing. So it's one thing to, and by the time 2015 happened, it was the wave. Yeah, I had actually hit a crescendo. Absolutely. Because I came back in 2014. And I still remember when we were building what I what was called Mads. At that point in time, I remember meeting the head of sharpest top and you're, and he was scared shitless. And he used to say, Krishna, do you think offline will exist? And, and you know, that scary voice right? When you're when you're scared, you, you you become you have that nique wise, will offline exists? If that was the kind of question he asked me and I will look at him and say, dude, what are you talking about? 2015 a report came out about ecommerce in the US. And it was 9% and today it's a 13% and COVID has possibly put it at 15 16%. What a lot of people don't understand is Amazon thrives because somebody else does the showrooming for them. If the physical stores didn't exist, Amazon possibly wouldn't see half half the sales that it actually does. Right. So people don't actually connect the online and the offline that I would tell him see, of online is a great model. It is it is here to stay. It's here to grow. But make no mistake. Offline will always be the larger pie. Yeah, you We live in a physical universe. Yeah. And I've said I've said this on my past episodes, if you if you haven't watched the movie Demolition Man, it came out somewhere in the mid 90s. You should watch it. And in that movie, Sylvester Stallone, Sandra Bullock and Wesley Snipes. Those are the three sort of characters and the seriousness alone and, and I give everybody this example. Sandra Bullock have an intimate moment. They're supposed to make loud and they are in a room. And Sandra Bullock is at one end, and Sylvester Stallone is at the other end. So Sandra Bullock is from the future. Sylvester Stallone is from the past. So he's been cytogenetically frozen, and then he's unfrozen that kind of stuff. So he's not, he's still from the so called Old World. And then they get into my to say, Okay, let's make law. And Sandra Bullock says okay, yeah. And she doesn't take off her clothes doesn't do any of that. And they both put, put a headset on. And then get it. So she simulates the whole thing. And then she makes all the sounds and stuff. And then she says it's done. And it's similar seven cannot really what's going on? What just happened? She said, we did it. She tells him he did it. He said, No, he didn't. And so I gave him that example and said, Dude, no matter how virtual how digital the world gets, some things are going to stay physical. Yeah. So. So that was the genesis of us continuing to believe in physical. And I said, offline is such such a such an interesting word. I with HoloLens, and holograms Yes, online will get interesting. But still offline will will persist. Yeah, so I used to see. So my whole rationale at that point in time was everybody's going online. And they're leaving the offline world behind. the offline world is really rich. And even today, that is a valid proposition, if anything, COVID possibly has shown that we need more offline interactions, because all of us have gone online now. And so when you so where there's, in addition to the frenzy that was going on at that point in time, whether some other life events that happened and sort of made you jump in talk about how you ended up starting magically? Oh, very

Anshoo Sharma  32:49

interesting urine. So yeah, so I would say one trigger point, right, was late 2014. I spent some time in China, there was India. I think that when rather than feeling like a bunch of folks from here, were part of that I was also part of that delegation, or you met all of those companies. And that was an eye opener for me, I realized we are not even 1% of what will be in a decade or two decades from now. Right? We are really just starting. And like almost everything you can think of there's a company that that provides riders in case you're drunk, like with a folded satchel, you can come in recycling the key and then kind of drive you home. And in fact, right, that's doing 100,000 transactions in it, like almost every niche use case you can pick and doesn't matter volume that's. So it's a matter of time how technology would populate our lives in so many interesting ways. And being an investor is also fairly exciting. You get excited about the same thing. I just felt that if I want to go out and do like build something, then that came first that I should go out and do that. Now one area, which is what you were alluding to, is this offline space. And I'll get to that in just a bit. But I'd like to spend time, right like we looked at snappiness first, which was about offline. We had looked at, you know, Groupon in India, lightspeed had invested in livingsocial. In US, you were invested in the anping in China, which became Mondrian thing eventually. So the belief on the concept was very much there, it was just that it was not able to start in India. Offline is tough, tough as nails right? Like, while the opportunity is large cracking, it is not as straightforward as you if you were to build, let's say an integrated vertically integrated ecommerce business, right? That also needs money. But this needs just more than one. And what we what we found was just one way or core insight that if we could use data, to first understand the flows of offline commerce, that's what's really missing in offline, right like an online you can track all the click right all the way to where it gets purchase. In fact, you you see a Gillette razor on Amazon for the next seven days, it follows you wherever you like the data usage is so tight and offline, even though that's 90% of retail, that data, doesn't it. But if you want to be able to understand that data, then we have we have such an interesting opportunity to connect users, retailers, and even manufacturing brands that operate in this plus $2 trillion offline retail. So I think that that was the problem statement, we had an approach around how to not how to bootstrap that in a way that it's clever, its efficient. And its value accretive to everyone versus having to burn a ton of dollars. I think that was also how, at least my and the core team, my co founder projects at our wirings. That's how we kind of said, this was the thing that you'd go after the space was known. We had a starting point of view, and both bridge and I converged on it. And once we said, This is what you're going to do. I told this to visual. And he said that, me know you, you guys, in fact, both of you. So if you're doing this, we're back to you. And that's how we got incubated out of lightspeed. And that's how we started magic. When, in 20, late 2015.

Krishna Jonnakadla  36:10

What was the spark to talk about the first I think, I remember a growth hack that you guys did. So it's one thing. So what you initially started off with was building the data. Yeah. And because you, you can't monetize. First off, you don't have any data on it. Yeah, almost nobody does. Although now I think Google Maps and a lot of them with the amount of location data, everybody's aggregating, which Foursquare data long time ago, in the US are doing and then triangulating with all kinds of sources, and then maybe drawing some decisions, I remember running Facebook local campaign for a fashion brand we were managing. And I was amazed at the number of footfalls that our online campaign on Facebook did for that particular brand. The brand believed it happened because of a totally different reason. The only thing that had changed was that Facebook ad campaign. So but that is Facebook, and then you have Google, you are not Facebook, you're not Google. So which means you have to start somewhere you need to start getting some data. Right? Is the first thing is you get data. Second thing is you need good amounts of it. And then the third thing is you start looking at ways in which you can monetize that, which means you're driving business to some way. Okay, so talk about how you started off the beginning, when you saw some traction breakthrough. That's Yeah,

Anshoo Sharma  37:37

so given so before that, let me just also point a little bit on the meta. In fact, the challenge for offline retailers is that Facebook and Google are ineffective, right? Like, the issue is that Facebook and Google don't close the loop on offline retail, they don't buy food, can you get what you said can happen, which is sometimes a confusion from time to reality, all of the local retailers, right, they would have burned 10,000 30,000 40,000 rupees on these channels. And that mine would have dissipated within the challenges that see these channels. While they work great with online retailers, when you try and get that traffic to come offline, there is no closing of the loop happening and thus, even their own ability, right. And closing of loop and not just like you know, lat long as a ping, it is also someone going and doing a transaction, which I can track very well. And the heart of magic pin is actually that ability to close the loop on and offline. Now let me tell you how we bootstrapped This wasn't your right, we did not have any data to begin with, then even if we once we start to get data, we had to arrange in a way that it becomes actionable to drive business to someone and then we had to get that person to pay us. And then we had set up a rewards program. So what we get paid, we have to pay something out of that. And thus we are finally left with something which is contribution margin. Right now, we figured out everything that whole pipeline works tightly. But our starting point, as I remember, I was still making my final days at lightspeed you are running these Facebook campaigns, which said that, send us a picture from cafe coffee day and we will recharge your phone with 100. I remember that was the first thing I'd done. And we got so many pictures immediately, right. Then we tried the same thing in Delhi University. I remember our initial days, he stood on the streets of Delhi. And he said that don't send us he started actually on the pitcher side that he was told you're going to send us a picture from that store. And we will recharge your phone. That was the first call to action to make things simpler, and this is our first day really, so we had no app thing right? He said just WhatsApp it to us. So people would send it to our WhatsApp. At some point the volume became intact in our second third day itself. It became 100 transactions a day right with the volume service. Well then we basically put patched Freshdesk behind WhatsApp and WhatsApp and allowed bots in those days until 2015. So we kind of created a board of our own applied with Python script or something which would send these transactions to, the agent would reply on Freshdesk to charge the phone. And in fact, I remember earlier I was charging the phone or standing on the street bridges, phones, and then we could recharge the phone with a multiplexer message back to the user on WhatsApp. And what that told us is that our loop for getting users to share data for a reward that will run away like him in India, that is the first thing you want to do see, right, whether that happens or not. So soon enough, once this was working, we switched WhatsApp from after first transaction, we said to us as you now need to come on. In fact, our first app was just an open source app that we picked up, we just acted pieced it together, but it was really an open source chat client. And at one point, I remember what we did is we put a magic wand on that chat line. If you press the magic wand, then you see the other cool selfies that others have sent from that. And we realized people were clicking on that button, they were 30% more likely to stick with us, they would continue to that action, right? That basically it was not just the reward. But over a period, the engagement started to play a key role in in knowing people around you in discovery. And then we built our first version of the app, which was actually a good six months down, then you could get out with it, which had this base inside of the homepage of feed page where people from around you would show on the average, it still does. And they are going to different places, etc. All of that happens. And the other phase that you'd have, which is also still the other page was that for every picture that you send us, of course, we have now gone easy, you don't need to send us your selfie, etc, you can send us a picture of the bill. Now, actually, you don't even need to send us a picture of the bill. Because there are more data sources, we allow you to just allow us to read your SMS and then you know, we can read your credit debit as UPI transactions, and still give you a reward points for doing that. So we are as we grew, we found more sources of data, perhaps which lowered the friction for our users. But let us understand where are they going? What are the places that they hang out. And for that we gave them points. That is the business model that you earn points for sharing your spend. And what we do is because we know your spend, we will match you to the right set of paying partners. And those paying partners will accept those points that you have given today, all of this organic demand a neighborhood and pointed to our pain points. And the business is so wired into that way of thinking is that we when we got a new locality, and now a lot of businesses built out in many areas, it doesn't happen as often. But when we start a new locality, we just follow wherever the consumers are going. We look at where the receipts are from you traumatize those merchants, and in a way work backwards, like take the GST, convert the GST to a phone number on that phone number WhatsApp or SMS, a link to the merchant where he would see pictures of his customers. His average or order value versus competition, his repeated versus competition will tell him you ranked number seven in your neighborhood, they're 60 per head. Or in fact, because of this way of thinking, which is consumer first, and then follow the consumer to find the merchant, we were very efficient. We have even today we have zero feet on street for merchandise.

Krishna Jonnakadla  43:36

And how do you get the competition data of the other merchants? They have seventh or sixth? Oh, the users are going to all the stores right? Oh, okay, based on the users

Anshoo Sharma  43:45

he's going to use, right. So we could tell you six people who come to your store, by the way, these six people also go to your competition, right? And those guys are ahead. So yeah, the merchant cares about two things, one his own customers, which we had authority on because the receipt, second is competition. But we also had an authority of because we knew that locality to the business is actually what I referred to previously, right? That offline is such a big market the challenges because there is no data, the burden on getting both the sides of the one side you have supply on the side, you have demand, right? That becomes a challenge. We started by saying that, okay, we will not care about supply to begin with, you just reward the consumers. Let's get the demand. And once the demand is in, we will get that supply when the demand right and thus create a more cohesive system that kind of feeds off itself and then just continues to that core still hasn't changed. I guess we've added more sources of data. And I'll talk more about it as we go. But the heart of magical remains, looking at different sources of data to understand this flows of offline commerce and then connecting users retailers and manufacturers who are the one

Krishna Jonnakadla  44:50

this is phenomenal, right? I have a confession to make at this point. I remember reading that funding. Story man between races, I think 5 million or whatever that was selfie, selfie app, magic pin. And then when I click it, and then I look inside, and then it says 100,000 people have sent selfies and God's honest truth, I would say, which period funded this? I would ask, I asked myself that question. Because what happens with most people is that and so let's say you're playing for most Indians, I think Catan board is a game that they understand. The striker. When you hit the striker, you're actually hitting the striker not to hit the striker but a coin you're aiming at. Right. So what you're actually doing with this kind of stuff, is actually building a community first. Yeah. Yeah. Because you first you first need to build a community. Yeah. And it's the number one. And I won't even say under understood. Number one not understood aspect of building ventures. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, God's honest truth. But But there's also another side of it. There are very few of them, that actually put a community together, because most of the time, they're just putting a community together for the sake of it. See, in your case, you knew that you had to get the data, you knew what coin you were actually hitting. Now, this was a means to an end. Now, it was going to remain the means to an end. The methods were going to change. Yeah, but that that was that was the tactic. Yeah. Right. So it is It is one thing to and it is one thing to understand that tactics, a totally different thing to confuse tactics with strategy. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. So in this case, so what even take credit, for instance, it's almost the exact same hack. Yeah, isn't it? It's now the only thing is, instead of a selfie, it's a credit score. Yeah. Right. And the, and the beauty of it is even today, I see so many. And the other day, you know, when I'm helping the current startup, with its growth path, I told them, hey, the best aspect of it is, you know what the coin looks like, you know which coin you want to hit. Now, go figure out how to build a community. Because community is your distribution channel, you are captive today. Your magic pin user base, is the is captive audience theory of captive distribution channel. Yeah, right. That's anybody that's building their customer base on Amazon, Flipkart, Facebook, Whatsapp. If they want to wanted to scale nationally, or even go beyond national borders need to understand that you will hit some glass ceiling at some point in time, and you will never own that audience. Right. So anybody that has dreams of scale, needs to figure out a way to build a community. Yeah, which I think you did masterfully. And, and the beauty of it is it's a gift that keeps giving. Yeah, right. So all you need to do, and I don't know, if you've done this exercise I've analyzed in India, well, in the West, you possibly have 5060, even that's a big number. Especially the ones that have understood the community aspect. Most people will community for the sake of it, even in the US, okay, let's put a community around it. Let's put social media follow, like share that kind of stuff. But there's no method to that madness. Just because people want to discuss you just put a community around it, but there are a handful of them, or maybe a little more, more, more than a handful of them that understand what this is. So Pay Pal did that. refer a friend and you get $10? And your friend gets $10? Yeah, that refer hack. You had Dropbox that did that five GB free when your friends do that. And Groupon, for instance, right? Which invited which asked people to invite, there are a few of them that have figured out. And so and another thing is, so it's one thing to figure out the community building, and to actually know why you're building that community. Even in it even today, globally. And in India, I feel it's a very under understood, it's a science. It's not hard. To be honest, it's science. And I i've been reading tones and tones about radio over the last few years about how to do that. And so I have great respect for what you did. Because I think for the user, it's a selfie, but the date that that picture has a lot of information in it right? It has, it has the area, it has a location, it has the mall, it has the price and it has a whole host of things around it using the You can triangulate and say, This is exactly what's going on.

Anshoo Sharma  50:02

Yeah, yeah. And it was easy. We along with the selfie, there was always the receipt that came along. And you know, with the receipt, we knew we got this GST which we could reverse engineer to phone number, the products that are being bought. The fact is, right, so much value from that receipt that sits right? selfie in a way become the cook, right? Oh, this company pays you for selfies. Right? Right. Everyone talks about it good for us, right. But all of that like this, aggregating all of that information, right and making it actionable for a retailer. We are marketing knowledge guys, as well as for guys like that. That was I would say the very interesting part. That it and we always knew, as you said, what we are going to do, but it took us a lot of I would say meandering trials errors, right? Like, it is a new thing. We didn't have something to copy from, you know, which is a good thing, but also a bad thing. Because you're then learning as you're going on. Right, great.

Krishna Jonnakadla  50:55

So how, who actually led all of this, I'm pretty fascinated. Because it has to be some sort of a mind that has some insight into human behavior. And because what this actually tells us is somebody looked at some kind of a trend. If you look at what the likes of ATM freecharge. And the movie quick, guys, did. They again targeted the same population? Yeah. Which is a college college going crowd, the young ones. Yeah. And then they said, Every time you do a recharge, I'll give you points, which is exactly what recharge? Yeah. So I have a term for that. And it's called high frequency behavior, right? So anything that's a high frequency behavior, you can align yourself absolutely with it. And organically find a motivational aspect. Yes. Now you're going to get gold out of it provided you know how to follow them correctly.

Anshoo Sharma  51:51

Really, I think it was it was that I would not say you know that. And yet generally like, like all of us are very, like first principle, more engineering than some more, I would say product, but perhaps less UI and more just systematically, data engineering, like putting those pieces together to very objective in terms of like, Is this working? Or is this not working? Is this not working? not stopping at? Oh, UNH, right. But what is the way to make it work? So I would say just that rigor of saying, and that goes back to all of the training that all of us had, before coming here to say, like, Yeah, I know, there's value in that receipt, for instance, right? As you said, right, if I can get the habit to come in, at some level it comes in, and then I need to just make sure that I can give value for the point because once someone's got into the habit of it, you feel almost, and we heard this from our users that, you know, if I don't do it, I feel I'm missing something and not doing what I should be doing, which is good. So I think we got into the habit of it. And we kind of grew this very nicely over a period. And it's not, as I said, right, without hiccups, we tried so many things. Initially, the points could be used tangibly, everywhere. Over a period, we realized, as we added more categories that let's say the points were being generated more on a low margin category, like grocery but being used at a high margin category, like all the other way around, sorry, generated at the same restaurant, but then being burned on a grocery store, which is okay, from the consumer point of view, but perhaps not okay, from the supply point of view. So how do you balance those pieces? How do you balance those without letting the consumer experience get hit? So in a way, we realized over a period, we are the RBI of this economy that we are running. Right? There are a bunch of levers that exist around adding liquidity, sucking liquidity, adding that at a user level. So all of those pieces Finally, I would say we just kept problem solving one after the other. And the good thing I would say is that the amount of tools still have a lot of tools, right? Because the fungibility of the points economy, that's helpful, right. The other part is, you know, the engagement that we get on the transactions, the community piece that we spoke about, right, so the more you get validation that my friend is dead, there's my friend met here, so many people went here, right? That's the other piece. So the combination of both of those things always has given us enough room to try out more like, get more juice out and you know, over a period, if you give things time and you keep applying yourself I think then the roads start to open up right. So I would say we started with building the gmv which is in our business, just a summation of all the receipts the spend that is coming in. Then we went from where to calling something monetized gmv which is where we get paid for that GMB otherwise receipts don't pay us right. But if they go to the right merchants, then we get paid. And then from there on we went to a finding margin opportunities because every time points are used, right? We not only do we gratify the user, but we also add more to our margin profile. So I think this, this, this journey just took time. And I would credit it largely, I would say, two, we believe in these three things within the organization, right, we talked about this curiosity, which is really important. But alongside curiosity, you know, you need to bring frugality, because and then the third piece he talks about is, is to have ownership of the problem. Now, in most cases, if we are able to blend these three things together, and in a way, you know, frugality is just to force there is curiosity. Otherwise, you can own something, put a lot of money and kind of get the numbers to go. But when you are frugal, that's when you get the best ideas out, that's when you build something which actually ends up creating a mode. So I would say it is just this, this constant rigor of saying, I know the goal. I know, this is where I need to get to. And I will keep trying things till the time they align, and then we move forward. So not one person, I would say, Now, we've been doing it over the years, right? Like, I would say, it's just the culture of saying that this is a goal. We are, we believe we are smart enough, we believe there's an opportunity. If it's not happening, it will happen if you try it.

Krishna Jonnakadla  56:12

Amazing. I actually will combine all of curiosity, frugality and ownership into one term, and in I will call it paranoia. Okay. A paranoia, unfortunately, has a negative connotation to it. But if you read Andy groves, only the Paranoid survive, you'll actually realize that if you go and look back, it's a positive kind of paranoia. Yeah. Yeah. Which like, which is actually driving you and saying, Okay, now we got this. Now we got to go to the next day. Now, how do we look at it? Because you're constantly tinkering. You're constantly working at it, and then saying, Okay, let's make this work. Let's make this work. Absolutely. So it's that, I would say positive active paranoia, positive active paranoia, that's a term that drives you, because you are not taking whatever position you are in for granted. Yeah, absolutely. And, and then you're curious saying, okay, where does it lead next? And you're not betting the farm? You can't bet the farm? Because you only have so many experiments left, right, if you bet the farm. Yeah. And then ownership means you're going to see through it. So I would say paranoid. But yeah, but that's amazing. So talk about couple of things. One is how long did it take for you to? For you to figure out that you had a game on hand? That's one, it's one thing to have 100,000 selfies and say, okay, that's great. Because most people, if you for the biggies have possibly a totally different reason you spoke about FB, Google not closing the loop. Right? Because I think there is a degree of hesitation to get into the offline world when I can, when I still have three and a half billion of humanity left to cover, you know, why would I actually get in? Touch the offline world? Yeah, they will they'll Facebook awkward, find calm, and then they'll make those acquisitions just to keep checking some of those forms. But still, there is value in touching the offline world, right, which you spoke about. So at what point of time did it occur to you that you had a game on hand? One? And you spoke about some things that didn't work? Were they the ones that happened before? You the first few experiments didn't work? Or the first couple of experiments worked? And then Have you found it to talk about those to the trigger? When it you had the feeling that yeah, I think we have a game on hand. And second, wait, what were some of the things that did?

Anshoo Sharma  58:39

Yeah, yeah. So I would say in general, like we felt we had a game on hand right off the bat as people. The first thing to know is would we get data? Right? Would people share content? Right? Would people share those receipts or selfies experiment that happened? And that was a runaway success. With that kind of traction? We knew we could mold, right? People are responding, right? The audience in our country, they want to absorb more, right? They're just hungry for more options, ideas, like eventually, what is Magic Man, right in a way RTG is the core DJ is 18 to 30 year old. People who are very aspirational, are exposed to world media want the best, but are also very value oriented. They want their their 100 rupees to do more than that. They want the 100 piece to do 110. Right. So aspirational, but value conscious, not cheap. They want the best things that they can possibly get. Maybe in shop a little bit more, maybe we'll switch some time for money. That is the core audience. We went out and we found they were lapping it up, right? They were loving it. So So right off the bat, we had this sense that Okay, we've got this piece, and we've got this piece in a way that we can understand user's their consumption pattern and match it to the places where they will go and spend and you'll get paid for it. Okay. That was the first First off Second, we always knew it's hard to get the local merchant who's really value conscious to give money. Absolutely right. always knew it, in theory learned that in practice also, like he like he said, Oh, we gave you so much business, these are the pictures of people's receipts, etc, etc. He said, This is great. I love it, you know, like, but I can't pay right now, as you'd expect. And we realize this is not realistic. Of course, we knew that. But I've been so far. You know, if you look at local businesses in India, all the public companies that are going in Mr. Just dial d'amato, they're all around local businesses. So it's not that the guy can't pay, they're very value oriented, they'll pay if you try, we realized we'll end up being a 10,000 people feed out feed, if that's how we build. We turned it around. And he said, the points that are being earned on magic pin can be used only at magic. And now what happened is that we had payments towards the merchant, because the user would go and say, I want to use my 100 points in merchant and say, yeah, I've signed up on magically nearly 100 points, right? And then the money would come to magic pen, because card plus points would be first reviewed by magic pen and then magic pen would deduct its commission and then paid. Right? So big problem, great solution, right? And he said, Okay, good. And that was that was, I would say a turning point, because then the system became self sustaining, right? more users, more machines, more users, right. And kind of the second thing that I have already mentioned, right, it was that even though this system got set up, we were finding imbalances in the system, because people could use as many points as they have at any merchant. And that's when we brought in that every merchant, how much points you can burn would be a function of how much that merchant is paying, which is, again, a function of the category that guy's in, how much is he paying us? how aggressive is the etc. So for example, a McDonald's would work at a 10% saving opportunity, while let's say jumbo burgers, which is a very interesting opportunity would make 20%, right to drive the same business. But both can coexist on magic pen, and we can split the business in the right way. So at that point, it became in a way an AdWords right, but for offline, where we could match the right demand with the right supply with the right amount of display inventory, but also the right amount of incentive. And that became one more thing, right, which came in and that went from there. Then over a period as we are growing, right, we are some of the problems that we are solving now, we realize that our first is super happy, they are going to do a lot of things. But we need to expand the concept of local is not just for the 18 to 30. It's for everyone, right? So the housewives, it's for people who are earning more that is like more discreet about what they're doing. Right. So he said, Okay, let's add these SMS, that's a new way to no clicking off selfie, no clicking a picture of Bill, you just give us the permission to read. And we will make sure that as we learn about you. And if you want to give those pictures, you learn more if you want to, right, but regardless, you can keep going, I will give you more, then we've added more things, we're just doing something now, with my lab, which is very interesting, very thing a user's registered debit or credit card, if it's swipe on a pilot's costs will allow, earn and burn even without the magic winner. So we are saying our concept works, right. And to that extent, large issuers, large networks, right, they can all add to that low margin, card swipe, a high margin value, which is coming from magic pins, partner savings, right? In a way, it's a win win for all consumers, issuers, our partners, because they get the business, we are now plugging into our retailers cost where the 100% of the bills that they are printing, we are not the cost, but whatever we are printing comes to our back. And as a result of that we understand whatever this retailer is selling. So these are all different sources of data which let us enrich. In fact, this retailer cost business that opens up an opportunity on the manufacturing side, because we know how much of parlay identity got sold at one retailer. And we incentivize the retailer to say that if you sell more, then you can earn more because party pays us and we pay part to you and part to us and part with your consumer. Right. So this offline economy is just opening up as more data is coming in. We are kind of layering that in Krishna, if you give me the permission, I'll add one more piece to the the paranoia thing that you spoke of. After you go ahead, right. That's that's the heart of it. And I would say if I look 10 years out, right, we are very concerned about what will happen 10 years, right? What's the rule of law? We are super long on over 10 years out. Why is that because some things we are just humans right as you gave the example of Demolition Man, absolutely man many categories will remain offline, regular experience oriented but the discovery can still start online. At the same time, even very functional categories, right, which are unplanned. Grocery chemist I don't wait for two days for that. I want I want it now. Right? I want it or not. Right? All of those categories will be In a way deal fulfilled by the local retailer, because that think about all of the inventory that already sits around in the local markets that think about the amount of working capital that's sitting in that supply chain, right? Why not leverage that? Right, and it will happen. So while some verticalization will happen, right, some horizontals will do well are doing, there will be some verticals will do it. But if the local merchant is enabled, that provides a very different kind of game. And I do believe that as the world moves more and more online, whatever remains offline will remain offline, because we are humans, but even what goes online for home delivery, the local retail will have a very strong role to play in the fulfillment of it. Now, we've not not be not anyone else has got like, the catalog and the inventory at a local grocer. It's a hard problem to solve. Now, we have got our ways, right, we are saying that we know 100%, the receipts that are coming from here, from the floor of St. Louis, we can estimate the stock of fescue, right, tough problem, but it's a path to solving it. And we are finding that to be successful. So we are concerned about what happens. We think local has a very strong role to play. And we are all in to that extent that we will get local to play that.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:06:13

Very interesting. In fact, yesterday, I had the Karthik wendish version of jumbo tail on our platform on our podcast, Dave, I think now crossed 50,000. Retail stores, though, they are in a sub segment of the stores that you're talking about, which is the kirana. Yeah, the local Cyrano de grasa. Yeah. And and I think you're bang on in terms of how the kirana can service. It's a vastly unorganized market. Yeah. And I think, once the current crop of older generation, because the older generation, see, the way the Indian economy has largely functioned is the government is virtually non existent when it comes to income. And I wanted to bring this up, when you spoke about your visit to China. The reason there is an app, you know, you remember these iPhone ads, when somebody would say, hey, I want to do X, and then there would be a smart aleck in a party that would say there's an app for that. And in China, that ecosystem exists today, because largely discretionary income has made its way into the hands of people. Yes, yes. What is not he? I am an ardent believer of the resilience if if whatever India is today is because of the vibrancy and the magic of its people we succeed succeed in spite of our government. Right. So why we haven't exactly seen that taken off, or any of these use cases is not because of lack of innovation, or lack of awareness. It's purely because we, our economic engine hasn't put discretionary income in the hands of people. So as a result of that, it has created a very inefficient system. So today, one of the functions of the inefficient system is at the local grocer. So the local grocer 2030 years ago, whenever they started, you know, they came from these tier two tier three towns, where they really did not have any job. You know, manufacturing has been dead for a very long time, agriculture is backbreaking hardly earns anything, they would show up in the city. And then they would say, Okay, what can I do here, there's no training for anything. Job oriented courses or Institute's virtually dried up a long time ago, even if you did go to a government tool Training Institute, there weren't any manufacturing Institute's or manufacturing companies that would say, Okay, let me put up a kirana store. So these guys put up a kirana store. And then largely these kirana stores, there's no rhyme and rhyme or reason, you would add 20 to 30 years ago, you didn't have many brands, you had parlay you had some of these a few you have a lot more today. So you would buy all of these in bulk and you would just have these bins and then you know wrap it up and then give and that model is has first inspite of so many brands existing that model still persists today. Many of the kids don't want to do it their kids who have seen them grow up they've gone to school they have one basic modicum of education and they've said okay, I need to change I think when that happens people like jumbo tail and you together because the journey is beginning online. Yeah. And I'm possibly saying Okay, these 30 items which I want otherwise big basket to send me Yeah. You know, I just rather hop onto my bike and then go to the neighborhood grocer. All I want to read Why am I going to big basket? Because I don't know if this is available in big bus here right. Now, if I have that x Mart or y mod which is either powered by jumbo tail or magic pin can actually fulfill fulfill it. Why would I just wait for To show I mean, there is a subset of people that that are possibly in this huge apartment complex. And then I have to navigate through these bad roads and infrastructure. And I want the delivery guy to do all of that navigation. And sure, but in the in the near future, when in infrastructure improves, and which I'm sure it, you know, there are only so many venues where people can continue to be taken for a ride all the time. infrastructure is the last remaining Bastion Yeah. And when then, you know, that actually dries up, they will move on to sophisticated deals, the smaller crooks will disappear. And then, you know, just like the West, you'll only have bigger cooks in the bigger political system. Right. So that's bound to happen. But I have a different question for you. Right? Something some, some part of me tells me that COVID has put a little bit of a spanner in the works for you. A little bit. Yeah, absolutely. We'll run a big one, right. And then I think it's forcing to re you to reinvent yourself,

Anshoo Sharma  1:11:06

I think 15 months back, I would have said this statement is true. Now I would say we are done with that phase. So what happened in April 2020? Is our business disappear? We will wait for getting people to go to a store. Yeah, no one's going to store those locked down, you can't step out of your house. Everything's right. And we realized that the local guy is that the user is there, the transaction needs to happen. But there is like the footfall business is what's gone. And we immediately I remember, right, April itself, we took the decision that we will enable home delivery from the solid on that day, and it took us time, right, good, like by the end of the year, we had. But now at this point, the second wave, in fact, with the pandemic indicators, as much first wave just kind of wipe this out, and we built it back to a similar level. With second wave we are, we've bounced back to already ahead of where we were in March. So a lot of that has to do with the fact that we said we are offline retail, but that doesn't mean offline, retail doesn't do omni channel. So we are omni channel at the same time, we've come back. And now the interesting piece is that we've got a new engine that's firing, which is his home delivery engine, cat engine, when an offline volumes are valid, still, still not where they were even in March 21. But our business is back to where it was on our own basis. So when both of these engines start firing together, right, we'll just go to the moon, right? So that's, that's basically where we stand on it. In fact, if you were to ask me the last hiccup, right, that was this March 20, hiccup where he said, Oh, what do we do now? We will literally at that position that do we wait for the pandemic to get over and come back. And I'm now glad in hindsight that we took that decision to say, you're not going to wait, right? This is this new part. And delivery is it's an own animal by itself, right? We were consciously staying away from it, because we didn't want to move boxes and the associated complexity, which comes alongside that, but now we've fully embraced it. We're not doing delivery by ourself. But we're tied up with a bunch of partners. And in a way, I think what will happen with delivery is also just like what happened with payment gateways, right, at some point, everyone is writing it themselves. And over a period, you know, you've got sophisticated layers, and service providers underneath that. So I think that part of the business, as in try and prove that in delivery would be a core part of that proposition. And we can build on top of it and still service our country within our region.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:13:41

So to two questions, that I'm glad you pivoted. But I still, in my mind, I don't even think you have scratched the scratch of the surface yet. Yeah. Because offline is such a big gust Yeah, absolutely. gel points. Angle is just one particular gateway into certain certain parts. Yeah. Which which is your most popular, I hold my question. But I want to know this, which is your most popular segment. So So food and fashion and electronics, so if you were to look at it, which is which is

Anshoo Sharma  1:14:17

in that order, and last one is grocery right now, but food fashion electronics last week, this is the fourth and pharmacy is a new one, which is kind of jumping.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:14:27

Interesting. Okay. All right. So, you know, all of this, each of these, in fact, if you look at the challenges that grasa has, is very different from the challenges that a fashion boutique or a brand has Yes. Right? Because if you just take if you just use one layer, which is COVID. The grocer was actually many of the grocers saw huge business last year during the lockdown purely because everything other than groceries, were in groceries were allowed to stay open, every everyone else was forced to shut down. And with footfalls not actually coming back, and God knows how many waves the COVID co COVID is going to have. The discovery aspect still lies unfulfilled when it comes to places like fashion. Food is possibly touched by zomato. And the likes, which I suspect why you got deepinder on your board recently. So I let you answer you know why you got him on the board. So, what I'm thinking is in your mind, you still see interesting opportunities, because you said, You're long gone hyperlocal and then offline offline, which means you still have a long ways to go. I'm actually surprised you haven't hived off, let's say one part of magic pin to say, Hey, I think there is juice in experimenting. You know, it's another story if you want to scale it, but a totally different aspects to say, let's hive off, let's say the pharmacy part of whatever is taking and start doing some experimentation to enable discovery discovery of a different kind, here and see what we can make of it because today, fashion, you know, it was, I don't know if you can attest to this. It's a poster child for everything that could go wrong and investing in India, outside of myntra. Very few, the graveyard of fashion stack of startups is actually huge. Right? And nobody's really solved the problem that exists in fashion, which is touching field and the storeroom experience, nobody's actually solved. So which which begs the question, because you have so many users, why haven't you tried? Have you tried or is it somewhere on the cards?

Anshoo Sharma  1:16:51

Just to repeat the question Krishna says that I answered specifically, are you referring to by having not tried fashion person? Like what what

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:16:57

know if some segment, because because you see the points is one aspect? Yeah. Yeah. of getting people onto the platform. Yes. But yet, there is there are still nuanced discovery that needs to happen, Legion? Sure. So do you is that somewhere on the horizon? Or is that still in?

Anshoo Sharma  1:17:15

Yeah, I think the discovery when goes hand in hand with content, right? You can't say I'm lucky if I go again, to that 10 year horizon, right. There is going to be fragmented market, right. And trust and discovery are very important elements that will let you transact in that fragmented anyways, and online, first of all, and the way to solve that problem of trust and discovery is through content, and the contents of different kinds of the different layers. It starts with, I would say, at one level, like functional content, which is lat long phone number address, goes to ratings reviews, then goes to the content of the store, which is the catalog I was referring to right? What's being sold insights, right. And then perhaps there is this trusting discovery is also sought solved by transaction content. And if I go to a certain set of places, like my people who know me, or who are in my community, they might get trust out of that transaction data. So there are layers of content, which will solve this trust and discovery problem, which you're referring to. And that is actually the heart of it. So we have two levers ready to drive business to a partner. The first one is the hard lever, but it costs us more money, which is the use of points. Right. And we use that right? I when when you need to an absolutely magic thing is about saving right you. But the underlying the softer lever, which actually cuts very, like long and deep right, is this content. And we had, I would say we had built a really nice way for both soft categories we have in our system, which is fashion, as well as food with this. So I can see where my friends go and hang out, I can see a stream of pictures or videos from those places. In fact, we would work with a bunch of guys like our lifestyle shoppers talk, they would ask popular people on magic when to come to their stores, click videos, right, like a for sale or a title. And they would all that would get propagated to the followers of these people, and which is fairly large, given our scale now. So that part is why by I would say the small retailer or a large fashion brand, both guys would love us a small retailer on the store opening for new launch would invite our people and then say our people are not an employee here. magicians are represented, right? These are people who are influencers in our system today. But the interesting piece about magic is like other social networks, we are about local, we are about offline Congress. So all of that content is directly tied to a place where someone can go and save money if you're on magic pen. So the discovery starts on the soft side and then closes the loop on the hardest side. And I would say to that extent, that's a hard problem that we have Thought and we're continuing to scale on, the newer set of problems that we've picked up are for the harder categories, which is pharmacy, grocery, where the catalog is more important. And that's where we are kind of now building this new loop of saying the receipts will generate the catalog and the inventory, right, such that we can get that part of the content. So again, right, so there is some functional content, some transactional content, and then some deeper content, right, which varies then by category. And each of these categories, as you rightly said, needs to be solved by itself. But the interesting part is, finally, as a human, it's the same guy who's consuming all of these things, right? So we can, depending on the category show a different set of things, but still be with the user. And our points economy connects all of these together. Right? Even though we are not you can earn on fashion burn on graffiti on on pharmacy, burn on food, right? Like all of that cross pollination just keeps happening. It keeps the network rich. And what we've found is the biggest value driver for our users is actually the density in a locality. Because the more users in a locality we have, the more merchants we have, the more merchants we have the more savings options the more places to go to the more diversity right, which is how local also thrives. So to reach dense markets, right. That's what drives users and merchants. So to go back to your question, absolutely. I might have made it sound like a one trick simple thing, but it's not really it's fairly complicated goes category by category, a different set of problems to solve an issue.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:21:28

No, I that was not what I meant. What I meant was, you're going to get into deeper and deeper experimentation. Yes. But I think you answered my question. One question is, I'm I don't know about China. But why haven't you gone global?

Anshoo Sharma  1:21:45

We have we we've tried Indonesia, one market and that market have been promising.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:21:49

No, no, no, I am sorry to cut you short. I don't know what this fascination with southeast Southeast Asia is. We all feel that it's culturally homogeneous. And it is anything but culturally homogeneous. But for a lot of this taking take the US, for example. I know the cost of doing business is very different there than compared to here. But, you know, look at what Foursquare tried. Unfortunately, I think Foursquare never capitalized on some of the things that they did. There. There was a company called shopkick. I don't know if you remember shopkick. Most of them have been flash in the pan. Yeah, kind of kind of things that have not really brought it all together. Yeah. There is still an online to offline model, like the one that you are working with, that could succeed.

Anshoo Sharma  1:22:49

And I'm honest answer to that is management bandwidth, right. Like the like, there are a bunch of things to solve so much more ground to cover here. So let's get deeper on this. India is a tough market, right? No doubt about it. Yeah, but we are we are in the midst of doing all of that. So might as well just put our head down and go deeper versus opium. One more front that takes a goddess just like

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:23:14

not mile wide inch deep. But yeah. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the that's the answer to that. Amazing. And so how much funding Have you raised to date, we've raised around $40 million. So far, okay. operationally profitable,

Anshoo Sharma  1:23:32

operationally profitable at post marketing. So, so quite deep to that extent, if we keep doing what we're doing for a few more months, we will be cached because that's what we

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:23:45

talk about numbers, scale numbers, users, merchants, that kind of stuff.

Anshoo Sharma  1:23:50

So we have, we have 5 million monthly active users on the platform. you're focused more on the top cities and the segments that I spoke of in the past. So 80% of our business would come from the top 20 cities and the next 30 cities will do the remainder. And that's also as I spoke of density, right? It's very deliberate, that you learn about it and vision that we have close to a million merchants where our users go and they will send transactions, like that's the total base of what we are working with. Out of that we have some 150 1000 merchants who are paying us now where our users can go and redeem. So that's that's a scale what we are looking to do is more of the same. We've got the core recipe figured out where users bring GMB which brings merchants which brings revenue which brings contribution margins Apple pipe is tightly set. What we need to do more and most is just keep increasing the number of users on the platform and that's what our primary focus is.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:24:49

Sure, so where does deep in the fit in all of this? Oh,

Anshoo Sharma  1:24:52

I think he's a he's a rock star, largely for having gone through that journey of the matter and building an organization, that honestly, I feel that all of us, right, I am really glad and honored to have him on the board, apart from him being a celebrity of sorts, but just the grit it takes to be able to accomplish that right to go through that journey, whatever is thrown at you. And you know, right building visitors is not easy thing. Being able to take that journey all the way, I just think there is enough and more to be excited about and to learn from more than anything else. It is that, of course, he's got specific understanding of offline ecosystem, having worked in a category and all of those things. But honestly, to me, that's, that's second order. The the more important pieces, you know, having gone through that journey, and the wisdom that comes alongside that, I think, right, having him on the board alongside other people who we have, well, I think equally highly of I think that creates a good mix, and keeps us honest.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:25:56

When I was researching for today's interview, I was almost thinking given that your number one category is restaurants, I mean food, which is actually restaurants and the bynder zomato. I thought you guys are competitors, maybe in some

Anshoo Sharma  1:26:15

percent of our business. Right. So to that extent, there's an overlap, right. Yeah. So all right, it's fine.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:26:20

And then I realized that it's almost like a Steve Jobs having Eric Schmidt on the apple board kind of decision. Right? Because he's, he's that person who's done that in that space. Exactly. And if anything, all you're telling all you all you're saying is, I think I value you, and there are miles that we have to go, and then you possibly already walk in some of those steps. You know, let's, you know, bless us with that wisdom, so to speak. Yes. Right. Yeah. So. So this is a question that I've been waiting to ask some, some part of me tells me. And you heard about the just dial acquisition by Reliance, right, that Amazon, or reliance, will possibly some part of me used to say that your Google Maps acquisition waiting to happen. Because that offline loop closure with Google, or Facebook not doing is what you is what you do very neatly. And it is it is something that they could port over neatly and say, let's start experimenting in other markets where you know, because the the DNA exists, the formula exists. And they don't need to go through the learning curve that you already have. I think it could, it could work as value for them. But some part of me actually tells me that because you're there are Indian nuances, it's India market focused, you would be more attractive, maybe not reliance, because I think where reliance is going a lot of people I don't think have understood, haven't peeled the onion. And then what reliance is actually doing is going building something for consumers, which are still five years away. They're not looking at today's consumers, you're not acquiring just dial because the target segment and the target audience that Flipkart and Amazon have is not the target segment of just that that's a totally different target segment altogether. And with Gio Mart and your chi o 's and geophone, you're actually looking at people who five years from today are going to be your customers and not today. So therefore, I think you're a good target for Amazon. So have you received any interest? And what is your own personal belief on actually selling yourself?

Anshoo Sharma  1:28:49

We know we I think we got we started to build something that lasts and grows and ties, you've taken the hard decisions to build something that is sustainable for everyone including us, right? Our our interest is to keep our heads down, focus on getting magic pill into everyone's hands in the country, right? That's the single minded agenda that we have, I would say we've covered a fair amount of distance, it's become a lot more fun. No way that we are giving up on what we're doing.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:29:24

Whether you're inside or outside, inside or outside of the company or outside. You know, I get to I get to do what I do if I'm in Okay, awesome. You touched upon culture some time ago. It's been a long time since a founder talked about culture. What's the culture like and how did you go about putting that in place? Has it been part of your DNA from the beginning?

Anshoo Sharma  1:29:52

Yeah, I think you know, culture to an extent is a reflection of who you are to begin with right? The I would say that Kind of people who came together? I did not describe my co founder page, right? He's

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:30:06

Yes, I think time to talk about it. How did because you said he was starting up lightspeed India office. And that is Beijing that Beijing Okay, he's only got it Yeah, then I think the right time to talk founding team came together. Yeah. So

Anshoo Sharma  1:30:21

I need a new bridge from me. He joined Bain a year after me. And I moved out to lightspeed at some point he carried on when he was part of urban touch, which was a big shake. Well, I don't know if you know him. And he was backed by Tiger depent, a beauty commerce business card, I would like to get to someplace, got it acquired, and then renew that Nexus for a couple of years. And he's a very operations when you wanted to be in building a business. And in fact, he was there before I was there to say, Hey, I'm going to make this. Like, I'm going to start a business. And he was thinking of options. And I would say, we were fortunate that I was fortunate to find him. And I hope you think similarly around the same time in conversion, same idea, to say, Okay, this is something that we believe will happen. And that's how we got started. Right. Now, to some extent do we have similar kind of training in the past, and the intensity and the space around being outcome oriented? Right, that was very much there. And then we did, I would say, building magic, when it goes to a lot of people over the years, right, it's been a marathon, many people have come in many have stuck, some have also kind of gone in a different direction, but credit to each one of them to build it, the culture has always been, I would say in this direction of very objective, those three values are defined right, which is like curiosity, ownership, frugality, just like this definition itself is very intense, right? Right. So we are that we are very much objective, but at the same time oriented towards an outcome and do whatever it takes. Being this we are not certain other things. Especially in the software area, we like, we probably lacked a bunch of things, which we are conscious of. And because we are conscious, we are getting better. But yeah, that's what the cultural magic is to be very outcome oriented. And and do that in a way that it's rigorous. And putting your heart into it and seeing seeing that things happen. I'm very proud of people who end up spending more than a year also, like they really have built a lot of muscle in that period. If they stay and and in general, people who spend the time with us continue to be with us because they like that energy and that

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:32:48

amazing. Talk about decisions. What are some that have worked, and some that haven't? Exactly what?

Anshoo Sharma  1:32:58

Just go back to that point we discussed earlier, right? If there's a problem that needs to be solved, we'll try it and things like four would go wrong, right? Like two of them will somewhat work. But maybe one of them will get it to work at first we'll take that in, you're not very, I would say hung up about what is the right answer. Let's Let's

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:33:16

How long before you pull the plug,

Anshoo Sharma  1:33:18

I think it's up to the person who's on point. The person owns the outcome. At some point, you know, you're wasting your time if you like the outcome needs to be had. So like, yeah, it's usually to that person.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:33:34

Do you read a little bit? Not always? what's what's the most interesting book you've read of late?

Anshoo Sharma  1:33:42

Interesting question. I'd say that. A bunch of things come to my mind. I would say the more softer kinds of things have, have had me more plugged in. works like, you know how the mind works. There's a gentleman named Steven Pinker. Yeah, who talks about, like, what is written on the book called blank slate or so I think there are a bunch of these ideas around. This is how we make our decisions. This is how we think this is how much influence we can think consciously off and think subconsciously of that that's been an area which I think I've recently read and is at the top of my mind. I've got a few more things on my reading list, which I have not gotten to yet.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:34:29

But you know, the funny thing show is that almost all of these books, these behavior, mind related books. If you go back and analyze and recall, they are based on the work of just two people. There's another author called Dan Ariely, who's written a book called predictably irrational or a random walk on Wall Street and stuff like that. Almost twersky and Daniel Kahneman. I've read a bunch of those I have read a bunch of those books. And every one of those books that I read used to Okay, I'm almost in this paper XYZ date. And I'm like, God, I can't believe the work of just two people leads to so much perspective. Yeah. And the seminal book on that is Thinking Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman. So if it's sort of like the mothership, and all these other books are sort of perspectives on it. And it's very fascinating to read all the other perspectives as well, because there are varying points of view. Sure. We're all blind men have this elephant. Absolutely. Right. And the brain and human behavior is like this element, it's impossible to fathom very dense and very beginner. So awesome. And this is fantastic. Have you ever two questions? Do you ever obsess that all of this could go away? does it keep you up at night saying, oh, gosh, maybe maybe during the pandemic, wave one. But now that you've weathered it, and possibly on top of your on the top of your game again? Do you still obsess that you could lose all of this in an instant? Or, you know, something could happen?

Anshoo Sharma  1:36:08

You know? Absolutely. As you said, right? I want to see where the world could go. And are we on the right direction? Where the world would go? Right? We need to be on top right? So the worry that paranoia is certainly there. At the same time, it's, it's there not in a way that I fret about it, I can be calm and worry about it at the same time. So it's a good place to be it's like a problem, right? You're in a game, it needs to be played well. So to that extent, I am conscious of it, but not not worrying in an existential way about it.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:36:41

And I'm, so I'll, I'll take it that you don't regret your decision on jumping onto the road, or path of entrepreneurship.

Anshoo Sharma  1:36:49

I'm really glad I did that. I really, man. Yeah, I have in the last six years building what we have built, I've got I feel we've we've done a fair bit of work, we've grown a lot, but in some way, we've just set the foundation. And I don't know if I would have done this in any other way. Even if I hadn't done this, I would I would like to do that. I like doing what I do.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:37:11

I I honestly think what you've done at magic pin, should serve as a practical case study in a lot of business schools. I'm perhaps one of the few guys who talks about magic pin as a growth oriented company when I am. No, I and I mean it with all honesty, because growth as a mindset is not easy is a topic. It's one of those topics that everybody is aware about. But very, very few people discuss it. The more widely discussed topics are funding, and the prevailing climate and all that all of those are just symptoms of one aspect, which is growth. Yeah, right, you get a handle on growth. And even today, I have to tell you, because I've been part of startup leadership programs, it's so many startups, like I was telling you before we hit the record button, there's this framework called Arr, which is essentially about do you know, do you know how you're growing? Why you're growing? where you're going? Whether in practice, or in theory, if you if you are not yet on the path of traction? how, when, how, why, and where will you get traction? That's the whole point of it. And this is I talk to so many entrepreneurs, and I've been guilty of that as well. There is no focus, the company that has growth, focus will win, because ultimately, growth solves more problems than anything else could ever solve. Yeah, money can solve a few problems. But growth will solve more problems twice or thrice the amount of money problems that money can solve. Right. So I would say growth should be the first topic that should be discussed. And then funding. funding, again, is only for growth. So I think you are one of the few. He was terrific having you on the show. What words of wisdom would you offer to entrepreneurs that are starting out in India and maybe embarking on this journey? What in their early stages? And what are your recommendations?

Anshoo Sharma  1:39:10

Yeah, I think their biggest takeaway is that, I think we are all and these people are starting are very fortunate to be in this day and time to building businesses. There's never been a better opportunity, access to technology, access to markets, more users coming online distribution getting sold, right, there is not a better time than now. To go after something that you believe in. There will be ups and downs, like like all of those things will happen. But staying at something that you believe in, right will always deliver will always deliver. So we are in a great place at this point in time. stay the course see things through, you get lucky. If you are staying the course sooner or later. Don't just stay the course I would say that's the most important piece that I would say and it's not intuitive. It takes time. To build that conviction that what I'm thinking is right, but start to, like, believe in what you're seeing sooner. The sooner you do it, the more the rest of the pieces of the Parliament start to come.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:40:13

Outstanding. I haven't heard anybody else say that. That's amazing. Luck is the residue of design, as they say. And I think, honestly, I believe we all manufactured our luck. Yeah. So on that note, I'm sure this has been a fantastic conversation. I know magic pin. I actually pray vision hope that you grow more the Indian offline ecosystem, and the Indian economy needs more players like you. I think what you have accomplished is still very little against the possibilities that actually exist in front of us absolutely not, notwithstanding all the revolution that's going to happen online, if anything, online is just a window to what can happen offline. And it has got its own world not denying that. So I know you will scale your peaks. And whenever that peak, you scale and your peak, we will come back and talk to you what the view from that vantage point looks like. We wish you the very best. And any closing remarks before we say our goodbyes? No,

Anshoo Sharma  1:41:17

thank you, Krishna. I'm really glad that we had this opportunity to talk I enjoyed the conversation and looking forward to

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:41:25 thank you. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed listening to the show, and want to help support our show, please leave us a review by visiting our website Maharaja subscale.com forward slash reviews. It helps other people like you discover the show. like totally appreciate your support. If you're a founder or an entrepreneur, or anyone interested in or working with startups, this show is where you see discussions in depth about founder stories, their playbooks and learn more about growth strategies. Visit our website for regular updates, or wherever you get your podcasts and discover more awesome episodes. I'll see you on the next episode. Click on the bell icon and hit subscribe to get the latest episodes