Cover Image For Episode44 - Kulin and Yogesh on Building and Scaling Onsurity
Kulin and Yogesh on Building and Scaling Onsurity

How The Jai-Veeru Of The Insurtech Sector Came Together To Build And Scale Onsurity To 70,000 Families

Listen Here:

If scaling an Insurtech startup had nothing to do with trust, it would be astonishingly easy to scale in this sector. Yet the founder’s task – his most difficult task – is always that of winning the customer's trust. Thus, trust is the “IT” factor. Consequently, one has to keep it in mind, while wishing to scale any startup especially one in the Insurtech sector.

Trust Is Key!
Trust Is Key!

The Growing Insurtech Startup Field

In recent times, we have seen a huge boom in the Insurtech startup field with more and more startups emerging, scaling and further promising the best service to the customers, thus scaling to new heights.

Consequently new Insurtech players now offer all critical 360-degree support and a marketplace to compare policies and prices.

Also, some of these companies have become fully-digital general insurance companies. Additionally many also offer rewards to insurers on being fit. Also in Asia alone, the funding of the Insurtech start-ups has seen a significant boom. According to CB insights, in the past three years the Insurtech funding has tripled in Asia from $140 million to $506 million! Also, India is no exception.

Global Insurtech Market Projected Growth
Projected Growth for Insurtech Sector

Therefore there is a huge scope for future growth in this sector in line with the medium-term economic growth prospects of the country and the large base of non-insured citizens. This can be verified by the data that is available. According to IRDAI’s annual report, insurance penetration in India stands at 3.69 per cent. Therefore making it one of the lowest across the world.

One aspect that can be the deciding factor for customers to choose an Insurtech startup over the other is trust. Founded by Yogesh Agarwal and Kulin Shah, Onsurity is one such startup. Onsurity has and continues to scale to new heights by promising trust and enabling SMEs to provide good quality healthcare to their employees.

Onsurity Logo
Onsurity Logo

Jai-Veeru Of The Insurtech Space!

Kulin and Yogesh on Building and Scaling Onsurity
Kulin and Yogesh: Jai-Veeru of Insurtech Space

Yogesh and Kulin can be called the Jai-Veeru of the Insurtech start-up space. The two met at ACKO, a private sector general insurance company. And since then, the two have a strong entrepreneurial bond which led them to start Onsurity in early 2020, with the primary goal being enable to allow SME’s to provide their employees with proper healthcare facilities. So In May 2020, Onsurity launched India’s first healthcare membership. This runs on a monthly subscription, which enables SMEs to provide health care support to their employees.

One, having spent 14 years working in the startup ecosystem and the other being the youngest one to clear the actuarial exam, this duo is the prefect combo. Listen to Yogesh and Kulin from Onsurity talk to Krishna Jonnakadla from Maharajas of Scale, about building and scaling an Insurtech startup, the challenges that come with it and much more on this episode of Maharajas of Scale Podcast.

Listen Here:

Here Are Some Excerpts From The Episode:

Yogesh on Starting Onsurity

And then with that, we launched our product, which we named as Onsurity healthcare membership, somewhere in May 2020. It was like an India’s first healthcare membership, which runs on a monthly subscription.

Yogesh 06:25

Listen to Deep Bajaj of PeeBuddy Talk About Scaling a Women’s Healthcare Startup: Season 1, Episode 26

Spark Behind Starting Onsurity

You know, we need to take care of our people right, because you know, this was a time when we really became humans, in a lot ways.

Kulin 59:52

​​Watch On Youtube:

Show Notes

Check Out Onsurity (

Yogesh Agarwal On LinkedIn (@yogesh-actuary)

Kulin Shah On LinkedIn (@kcshah)

Follow Maharajas of Scale On Twitter (@maharajaofscale)

Check out the Word Cloud for the Episode below!

Word Cloud for this episode

· · ·

Episode Transcript

(Automated Transcript)


sme, healthcare, product, people, krishna, yogesh, smes, employees, problem, business, insurance, scale, create, solve, growth, couple, building, market, india, actuary


Kulin, Yogesh, Krishna Jonnakadla

Krishna Jonnakadla  00:01

This is Maharajas of Scale, a podcast where we go behind the scenes and talk to founders who are demolishing the myths around building and scaling a big business in India. These are the stories that have shattered the assumptions around Indian consumers and of changing the game completely. I am Krishna Jonnakadla, serial entrepreneur, co founder of FLIT the fashion locater in town and startup mentor, bringing you the stories. Hey, everyone, this is Krishna, your host from Maharajas of Scale, we have a young and dynamic duo today are actually bridging a gap in the insurance sector and addressing a segment that is actually unaddressed. Right now we have Yogesh and Kulin of Onsurity, guys. Welcome to the show.

Yogesh  00:45


Kulin  00:47

Thanks for having us.

Krishna Jonnakadla  00:48

Awesome. Awesome. So guys, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're working on right now.

Kulin  00:54

Sure. So hi, I'm Kulin. And I'm the co founder and CEO at Onsurity. I've spent the last 12 to 14 years in the startup ecosystem. And, you know, I was a VC for about three and a half years and did my own startup, which was then actually hired by Freecharge. At Freecharge I was responsible for growth partnerships, where you know, close partnerships in less than a span of eight months, no, drew close to about 3 million transactions and post that, you know, there was a special acquisition happen. And post the acquisition, I was responsible for launching the Freecharge wallet, or the digital ecosystem, where my team and I were kind of, you know, lucky to work on a very interesting problem statement. And we acquired about one lakh digital merchants in less than 12 months. Then I took a sabbatical and then went on to join a new age, general insurance company ACKO where I was given the mandate to kind of you know, try the P&L for micro insurance bite sized insurance products. And that's where I met Yogesh. Yogesh was my counterpart on the on the on the underwriting, pricing, insurance design. And, you know, he kind of helped to create some of the products out there. And we went on to kind of, you know, close to about 40 million unique users and and now we're kind of building Onsurity.

Yogesh  02:14

Yes, so Hi, everyone. So I'm Yogesh, founder and CEO at Onsurity. So basically about to start with I come from the insurance background where i worked for the last 10 years, started my career with KPMG as an actual consultant, had worked with a couple of Indian as well as international insurance and insurance companies, reserving pricing and developing this particular model for designing different sort of transport products. Then, from KPMG, I move to Shriram General insurance, where I was the chief actuary and chief risk officer, there I was responsible for their actual team as well as the underwriting team, for the motor as well as for other products and in helping them design the products and products to buy the regulator. Then from Shriram Gen insurance, I move to Universal Sonko General Insurance. As an appointed actuary and chief risk officer, and was responsible for the entire actuarial land does function with it. Yeah, by the way, I'm a qualified actuary where I qualified it. And I'm also a chartered accountant. So yeah, so that is my educational background. To offer you also sample general insurance, I started my own actuarial consulting firm named as that's actually, which is kind of a sister concern for what's actually listed over there. I was actually helping a lot of Middle East as well as Indian companies to design and to value the different employee benefits. And this is where my passion towards the employee benefits and employment started with. During my journey at Lux actuaries. I met a couple of insurance company CEOs, and will be company where I provided my consulting was ACKO, where I was responsible responsible for designing the reinsurance products without trading the reinsurance company for the company, as well as helping the other actual field to deliver on to the products of the IRDAI licensing. So that's about my background. So somewhere in October 2019 or November 2019, I want to start on Onsurity, basically, given that I was actually handling a couple of SME kind of a business in the past as well. So be generally the thing was the SME and the employees do not receive any kind of health care, because there was a kind of a gap in the supply where all the large players do not take care about the SME market and this is how my journey or how my how I ideated this particular Onsority is basically to go after that particular SME market and to at least create a kind of a platform where they can actually provide the healthcare and different employee benefits to all their employees, their workers, their consultants, etc. So, with this ideation, I try to convince couple of investors to do something fun, so that I can actually create a technology which can support the platform. Somewhere in January February, and let mixers and other investors and then some very much important, because I will leaving a co founder because my background was more technical in terms of designing products, risk assessment, risk management, financial analysis, but I need someone who can actually scale distribution scale the go to market strategy, and this is how I convinced to may be come and join me somewhere in March 2020. And then with that, launched our product, which we named as Onsurity healthcare membership in somewhere in May 2020. It was like an India's first healthcare membership, which runs on a monthly subscription, which then that particular monthly healthcare subscription enables, like SMEs to actually provide a kind of health care support their employees so that they should not be used. Yeah, so they cannot be these. They're about financial security and their health thing can be taken care of.

Krishna Jonnakadla  07:01

Interesting. Nice, interesting. Well, this is what I call as a multi paragraph answer. One question leads multi paragraph answer, you almost gave away the entire story. Now, there's nothing for me to cover. Just kidding. That's, that's fantastic. So let's see...

Kulin  07:18

If I can interrupt you once.

Krishna Jonnakadla  07:20


Kulin  07:21

What Yogesh is always embarrassed of saying that he's, at the time when he kind of cleared his actuary exam. He was actually the world's youngest actuary. And I don't know if someone's really contesting that or not. Right now. But in case no one's contesting is actually the world's youngest, actuary, at this point of time in case no one's contesting that.

Krishna Jonnakadla  07:39

Okay. But I don't think I can contest the acturial one. But I can perhaps offer a contest for the Chartered Accountant or I'm a chartered accountant, myself. And I'm a rank holder. I was, I was one of the youngest in the country. In the year that I passed out, at least in the southern region, I was only one of nine people.

Kulin  07:59

So that that was nice.

Krishna Jonnakadla  08:01

Yeah. So anyway, but I don't take education very seriously. I think it's, I think it's essential from a knowledge perspective. That's what I mean. But all it does is it opens the door for your first job. But after your first job, your education is possibly just somewhere in your LinkedIn profile, or in your nameplate, in front of your house or on your visiting card. Right. Everything that matters from there on is what you take and how you're doing. So excellent guys. Tell us what kind of numbers is Onsurity looking at right now from a scale perspective, but and from a customer perspective, and number of people insured, that kind of stuff.

Kulin  08:42

So just to kind of give you a background, right, so, you know, the product actually launched amidst COVID in May of 2020. If we left off, we left for the lockdown with only 18 employees, obviously to you know, scale. You know, we wanted to kind of, you know, make sure that you're scaling fast. And, but but at that point of time, we were like limited people. And I think today, we are team of about 70 odd people now. And we are now we are now having close to about 500 plus companies who you know, who have kind of, you know, opted for our healthcare membership. And just to kind of set the context, we don't sell insurance. Right, what we're really doing is that, you know, because in India, people normally just think about, you know, health care as health insurance, we've been trying to bring that change, right. We are trying to make people understand that know what healthcare is much more than just providing your employees with health insurance, and hence your kind of, you know, providing a healthcare membership. And, and that's the kind of route that we are kind of taking today.

Krishna Jonnakadla  09:47

It's pretty interesting. We'll, we'll do a deep dive on that, you know, in a moment, so how many people are you actually touching in terms of individuals through these 500 Companies?.

Kulin  10:01

 70,000 families we have already impacted.

Yogesh  10:04

No,no 70,000 Lives.

Krishna Jonnakadla  10:10

So 70,000 families, okay, that's a, that's a great start, especially for a company that was just founded right before the pandemic or maybe almost during, around or before the lockdown that happened last year. Right. But we come to Onsurity in a couple of minutes. But I want to go back to your background, at Freecharge a bit Kulin. Those are some interesting numbers that you shared about 1 million, 1 million merchants and then eventually what you did with the new product, what what was, I'm, I'm a big admirer of Kunal Shah and his thinking, I think he's one of the few people I've consistently seen that focuses and brings up so many insights about human behavior, as opposed to, and he also says that is because he's one of perhaps the only founder, at least that's what he says, I haven't actually checked that. He's the only one from the humanities, and not a techie who's become a founder, founder of a tech organization. Right? So, uh, talk about that Freecharge time a little bit. Obviously, this is during the 2015-16 era when it was like the dotcom bubble in India, and every everybody and anybody and everybody got excited about startups. So talk about that time, what were some of the things that you did that you missed today? And how did you get to a million merchants there?

Kulin  11:40

Yeah. So that was one lakh merchants that 100,000 or not a million? Yeah. But so so I joined Freecharge as, you know, our own startup getting actually hired, and actually the, you know, I was fortunate enough to kind of, you know, start working with Kunal and I still remember it was my first campaign, you know, a leading cab company, right? Ride Hailing. Sorry, yeah. And I pulled Kunal that, hey, you know, a moonbot campaign, this won't cost, you know, X amount of lakhs. And I'm not sure whether I should do it. And Kunal just said one thing he said, "Dude agar front foot par nahi aayega toh six kaise marega?". And that really opened up the doors for me to say, Hey, you know, what, if you have to think scale, you have to take the risks. Right. And that was a, you know, a great starting point. For me. And so, you know, to start to kind of, you know, first started doing growth partnership, this is like a pre, you know, pre Snapdeal acquisition. And growth partnerships was a very unique concept at that point of time, where you're kind of, you know, partnering with, you know, leading brands like, you know, an Amazon or a Line Messenger, or RedBus, right, where we were kind of, you know, rewarding our users with, you know, with with rewards from the Freecharge ecosystem, right. And that's how we kind of, you know, what, kind of driving new users and driving more transactions on the current user base, right, and getting very good user base itself, because you're coming from digital platforms, right. So that was something that's very interesting. And that's where we kind of first drove the 2 million transactions. And post Snapdeal acquisition was then kind of, you know, we already had a ecosystem of digital merchants that we can work on already working with. And now payments was, you know, another solution that we wanted to kind of, you know, provide to them. I think, the biggest learning from speeches in this whole kind of, you know, getting the one lakh merchants on board was that we never took ourselves to be selling a wallet, or a PG, right, we never told us that you're selling that he said, we are we're solving the growth problem. Right. And suddenly, the gatekeepers became enablers, and the CXOs. And, you know, the CMOS, and the CEOs became, you know, proponents internally or champions Intel saying, Listen, we need to get featured on both, right, because they can solve our growth problem. Right. And I think, right, that's what that's the interesting part that led us to kind of, you know, scale so fast, right. Because we said that we are not competing only with wallets, or you're not competing with PGs, right? Because then, you know, everything becomes becomes our own MDR. Right. We said, Listen, we are gonna compete, because we going to partner with Jim Crow, right? And that helped us to kind of stay much faster, and, you know, get binds much faster, integrate things much faster than others. And I think that's, you know, one of the key reasons how we, you know, got to a one lakh merchant in less than 12 months actually.

Krishna Jonnakadla  14:46

Very interesting. You should say that, because, although I'm sure there is enough from a tactical perspective, the kind of maybe acquisition tactics, the campaigns you launch to get to 100,000 but what you're Focusing on essentially the core philosophy and the approach that you took to acquire them. More often than not, I've seen that a lot of founders. In fact, I come across a lot of startups. And the weird part of part about it is, a lot of them are in limbo. They, even when there are one or two founders, they have created a product. And some are still struggling with early users. And more often than not, when I actually lift the veil and say, there are two problems. One is there is almost no focus on growth marketing. I've seen that. And the number of the the number of founders that do not either do not even acknowledge that that's a track. It's so many, I would look around myself and see. And I keep wondering, how come with this kind of product? This startup is not going anywhere, this the startup is not scaling or doing anything, right. And then I and then I would ask them questions about Ok, growth. And most of the time, they will look at me look at me like a deer in headlights and say, What do you mean growth? Right. So that's what so what is the growth aspect and the second one is confusing the method with the outcome. So payment gateway is the method, it is the method, it is just processing something, but the outcome really suffered. So for instance, if there are 100 people, and out of 100 people, only, you are able to attract only 10. Today, as opposed to video where we're able to attract 20-25, now you actually grow their business, the method is still a payment gateway. But the end goal and the outcome is actually the growth in the business. So the funny thing is, we are going through that cycle right now in the product that we have, why what we do is the method. But that's not the method that is not our intent, right? We don't even use that word. But the whole idea is, how can so a normal person, the amount of business they lose, right, and they're unaware of the business they lose is absolutely astounding, right? So, for instance, two people have to come and do a deal together, where this person might say, Okay, I don't, I don't know if I can trust this person. I don't know if I can get protection. So I may not do that. So you will not even know that that is revenue you've missed.

Kulin  17:29

I completely agree with you. And I know I've you know, hit my head against the wall so many times and I think Yogesh has done the same, you know, when we are at Onsurity that, you know, you're losing out on so much by just not experimenting. Right?

Krishna Jonnakadla  17:43

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Kulin  17:44

 And I think that's, that's, I think that's one of the things and when when it comes to it will kind of tell you why we are building what we're building and how we are building by building so yeah, but I completely kind of agree with you.

Krishna Jonnakadla  17:55

Yeah, so I can resonate with that. But I do want to you know, get on to Yogesh's story a bit as well. So you guess it's a actuarial thing. You're a chartered accountant, I'm a chartered accountant two offers understand numbers for but for the layman. If we were to, you know, discuss act, actually actuarial service, it's important but boring. It falls into the important but boring functions. Right. So today, if I had to insure a mobile phone, and if I'm insuring, let's say the one plus and the one plus market prices 45,000, and I have to insure it, let's say it's not a it's a new phone, it's not a refurbished phone. So I have to come to you and, for example, get a policy You are the you're the person that is going to tell me Okay, it is it is a 46,000 rupee phone, then you want one year insurance. So these are the things that will get covered. So you pay 1000 toward, let's say some number, but that there is a science to it, there is a method to it. So you are you are the person that puts the magic in that behind that 1200 number, right? How many one plus are there? What are the cost of all the parts? How many phones are reported stolen? How many phones break screens? So what are the you calculate all the risks, apply statistical modeling on top of it and say, Okay, this is if X number of people filed claims 20% of the claims are valid if I if we have to pay every one of those, what's the cost of acquisition? That's 1200. So you that's all the science behind and I'm I'm perhaps maybe even oversimplifying it, because I took the example. But would that be accurate?

Yogesh  19:36

Absolutely. Krishna. So basically, that would be accurate. But these days on PVC, we were actually going much more deeper that is to propose what the experience of scissor pose. Actually, it's a classification problem. So how exactly you classify Krishna was pulling verses right. So that's where the classification problem also comes around. But In that simple term, what you have mentioned that you need to compute, what is the probability? Or what is the chance? Or what the odds of Krishna breaking the fold? And what is the average cost of repair of that fold, which we say frequency, the former one and the severity and multiply and get the cost? That's it? It's a very simple thing. I don't know why people are committed to a sure thing. That is rocket science. It's not rocket science. It's simply the more crunching over data and understanding the behavior of the consumer and give understanding of actually the risk of it is. That's it.

Krishna Jonnakadla  20:40

Right. Right. Interesting. I thought you're actually saying it's simple. In fact, most people in your place would say, it's complicated because you have a degree to defend.

Yogesh  20:49

Basically, I would say that, basically, as what you have mentioned, I personally, also believe that basically, your degree, your qualification can be the first job. But how you scale from there, or how you create your own career graph is something it's completely dependent on? How exactly you're delivering the organization with the work you do.

Krishna Jonnakadla  21:16

Okay, so where did this.... I've looked at your Android app. And then, when I look at some of the original reviews, or sorry, earliest reviews, it talks about mobile phone coverage. And these three date your Onsurity launched last year, because I think, from the timeline that I can see on the website, Feb 2020, or Jan 2020, where it was when the company was incorporated. And then eventually that is when you launch the health, the wellness platform or the wellness program, as I suspect, you possibly have stayed on this idea for quite some time. Maybe it culminated, maybe it started with something else. So go into that story a little bit.

Yogesh  22:03

Oh, yeah, well, I will just go with that story. So basically, I was an actually an accountant. And somewhere, I'm talking about may 2019, or April 2019, or when I was also consulting couple of inshore tech. So one of the problem I actually taken on myself that, oh, boy, I could be delivering a kind of a technology product, and how exactly we can deliver, I could actually get a manager kind of a product, which could be like a mobile app. So with that kind of just to experiment it out. Because there are companies who are building or building a similar mobile application, which can actually reverse detection of damages before. So I was trying to get a couple of engineers to develop that app. And also a couple of in shortage at that time, I wasn't doing that, they really need that. But again, they could have be having like some kind of a bandwidth to develop that. So I take the challenge, I developed a kind of a prototype, in place to if you have to give a demo to any of the potential clients to submit the app and get it delivered. So that's how the that particular mobile application was developed, just to demonstrate that it could be a technology approved by speed. But again, it was not like a mainstream thing that I really want to develop. But it was more kind of how an actuary can actually can actually manage the technology product. So that's what the overall idea was.

Kulin  23:38

He wanted to add the you know, dressing of technology to his book and possibly like you said, right. Things so I think that's what he was trying to experiment.

Krishna Jonnakadla  23:48

 Can I actually build a business or just keep serving other businesses that he is serving.

Yogesh  23:54

No basically yeah, Krishna is building business I think  Marwadi being a mMarwadi, I have been my my dad's business from like my, at the age off 14 ahad learned basic business skills from there, then I was actually running my own consulting firm, where though I was actually helping other other businesses, but it's still running a business, understanding what are the requirements of the clients understanding what the demand would be looking like. So all those basic business skills that will be required in running any kind of business or thing is, I was doing those particular stuff as well. But technology mean, so given that, again, being an actuary or running an actual firm, we were actually building all models, or lots of application, database applications, but building a consumer kind of an app which could be like, for the on a regular basis by Consumer for like a fasting kind of a thing, and that's where I wanted to reach I think I can build or I can at least enable the development.

Krishna Jonnakadla  25:07

So what was the spark? Then? It is the what what you eventually did with Onsurity  is a far cry from where you started with the original app. How did how did that come about?

Yogesh  25:18

Somewhere in August 2019, when I was actually running my consulting firm, a couple of my employees had come asking that they need help. And even after like working with insurance sector, with the different health and wing, clean another healthcare, other healthcare companies, even not being able to secure property and offer health care for our employees. And that was like a digital art. And every time whenever an interview comes around, whenever we need to attract anyone over talent and talent, they're coming from all the topic force. Their first question is, okay, you can match my salary expectation, but how are you going to match my perks and my benefits. And basically, for that, we were happy to spend it around in a consulting business, because it's a cost to salary. But still, we will not be able to get that particular product. From that it all that journey started that how exactly we can develop a platform for the SME, because, for SME there are like a lot of good startup, who had solved their event problem, who had solved their working capital or a capital or loan problem, but no one has solved for their employee benefit problem or employee medical problem. So I want to create a kind of a platform, which actually then try to solve that because there was a serious supply constraint that was there. And you can imagine that a person like me who understand numbers will still have some connects, still will not be able to get proper employee health care for my infant.

Krishna Jonnakadla  27:02

But you're quite surprised, because at least the normal assumption has been that those that work in SME have benefits forget a lot of them don't get a formal salary slip. And they don't have salary accounts. They don't get their TDS remitted. A lot of things don't happen. Now, you're actually telling telling me I'm going to give you the moon. Because when I don't get my basic benefits, because that's how the country's been run. And a lot of it, fortunately, or unfortunately, has been structured. The cost of doing you know, the weird part is in in an SME business, there's already a lot of competition barring of few handful of firms. You're you're in a different league because you are running an actual business, you don't see 1000 actuarial firm or actuarial consulting firms, right risk underwriting firms are possibly 25. But when you when you start looking at all the other SME businesses, small and medium businesses in India, there are competition is extensive rampid. Now, on top of it, you have capital doesn't come cheap, on an average cost of capital. And as a CEO, you understand this, right? So cost of capital, average cost of capital is still somewhere around 20%. Now, you bundle it the cost of managing competition, employee turnover, and then real estate costs, you have a perfect recipe where you almost have nothing to pay an employee. A lot of people don't understand this. But once you start getting into the SME market, where there is no nothing to defend real, right, because you're not offering anything that is out of the ordinary. If you go to a travel agent, he happens to be a neighborhood travel agent, he just all that he has to offer is easy access. Right? Because with online, you, you you're able to find prices, you're able to find fairs. So for the average SME, it's a segment that nobody wants to touch. So I'm actually surprised. But it also has a flip side to it. Right. So, you know, there's a quote that is attributed to John F. Kennedy. And in that quote, he says, He says in the, in the Chinese language, two letters represent a danger. And the very same letters represent opportunity as well. So the way I see wherever you see and the Thomas Alva Edison says, very few people recognize work. Very few people recognize success because most of the time success requires work. And it shows up in overalls, which is like mechanic's uniform. And most of most people don't recognize it. So why a lot of people don't want to touch that. By definition, that also means it's got a few other Able to crack it, it's got a humongous amount of impact that you can make and the amount of wealth that you can create. They're not just for you, and the impact that you can make as well. Right. So why why why SME, it is a tough segment.

Yogesh  30:15

So Krishna, actually, you have mentioned actually, and about my dad's particular business, it could not be competitive, I will just take you like 10 years, 12 years back of my life, when I was

Krishna Jonnakadla  30:29

Get a little into frame

Yogesh  30:32

Actually helping my dad's business. And the biggest problem where every year what we were facing is salary advances, because of the health issues. And this is basically a kind of a blue collar kind of setup, it's a kind of textile distribution from all the employees were having a salary of less than 10,000 rupees, almost like a nine to 10 kind of an employee strength. But every year this particular problem happens. And we have to give salary advances, because, again, because of the humanity part, because that employees they have with us for very long. So we have to give advances, but for giving or providing any form of advances, but most also have its own consequence. Because again, once you start giving advances, it becomes a practice, then you end up actually giving advances for non medical reasons, which could be someone, as some simpler someone wants to purchase, we need to give a kind of advanced. So this is the basic problem of the SME, and I will I'm talking about somewhere in around your total protein. Now, with the advent of all the workforce and these, Zomato, Ola, Uber, that kind of a platform, these guys are also like the means the employees of the SME could be really good, can also become like a good good food because they just had to purchase a bike or get a smartphone and start delivering at Swiggy or Zomato. And then it becomes like we have seen cases like that in Onsurity, where the employee is just coming, I want to give them the benefit because it is becoming difficult now to attract the talent because he will come and say that I'm going to all these gig workforce platform, because over there, I'm actually getting much better paid and on top of it and actually getting much more benefit and my family's more secure. So that is like one thing where all the SMEs are coming up. And basically Krishna, you have actually cracked that very three words, competition, employee turnover, and the cost of working capital. And being a SME, we know that these are the three major problem in order to actually enable our product to scale. Because these are the problems for every SME be like as big or as small that geometries will go through. When I started or when we started designing the product, we were knowing that these are my three constraints which I need to optimize for. And I have Luckily, we will be able to track all these three issues so that for any SME this particular problem, or they may, they may not show reluctance to actually to get this particular product. And how safe in terms of the number 90 to 95% of our customer base are all new to Medicare or health. So effectively, it's going after like the or you could say the complete missing middle, and basically not going to the those who already have or those who are actually being provided by some scheme by the government. But we are actually creating a new market, which I think that it could be looked at as an opportunity. But you need to manage the risk that comes along with that.

Krishna Jonnakadla  33:57

So the only place the middle gets actually pampered is when it is around your stomach. So so so let's jump into the product a little bit, you said, and then we'll go on to the scale story. And I want I do want to hear how the two of you came together. And I have another question for Yogesh. Sorry, Kulin, I'll hold that for a minute. So let's speak about the product, the product. You said. This is not just health insurance or health insurance. This is something more than that. Elaborate, elaborate a bit.

Kulin  34:36

So, Krishna, I think, you know, just to add to what you just said earlier, right. And I'll just try to find to the question that. SMEs generally it's not about, you know, the lack of intent to provide things right is just...

Krishna Jonnakadla  34:51

I don't think you know, as they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It's the it's the lack of intent, but That's the that's the sad part. A lot of people think it's the lack of intent, but very rarely focus on the practicality of it. Right? most problems are practical than intentional and the structure of what we have created all around us, but is what righteous, but but go ahead.

Kulin  35:22

So that's exactly right. Like there was never a lack of intent and destiny sight, right to provide health care. Right. I think they wanted to provide, but they never had the right product. Right. And hence, no, we started thinking that listen, how do we kind of you know, create a beneficial product for the SME? Right? And hence, we realize that, you know, not always No, will a person need to get hospitalized? Right. And Yogesh correct me if my numbers are wrong, but, you know, 70%, or 76% of the healthcare costs are basically out of pocket like they do not have you not necessarily related to an hospitalization, right. This could be medicines, health checkups, right, or going to a doctor going to for a second opening, right? And that's where we felt that that's where the money is being spent. Right? And hence, we said, Listen, if you really want to add value to an SME, right? And if you're just telling them listen, I will only provide you or handhold you only at the time of hospitalization, that still does not solve their problem. Right. And hence, we said, Listen, let's take a comprehensive approach towards health care. And hence today, you know, like I mentioned earlier, right? And on surety is providing the comprehensive health care. So we provide right from discounted medicines, you provide discounted health checkups, we provide free doctor consultations, right? We provide super specialty consultation at a very cheap price. Right. And then obviously, you know, for our members, we also kind of say that Listen, if worst Converse happens, you also have a, you know, a healthcare insurance also, which is bundled with our product, right? And that's the way we've kind of, you know, looked at our SME offering, right thing that listen, a wholesome product, which they would definitely say because, you know, if they don't if, for example, one year if they had no, you know, claims in a traditional insurance parlance, right, they say, Listen, why am I even spending money, right, we will not see the value out there, but in our product, we actually see the value coming to them every day, because, you know, there's always something or the other for them or for their families that they can use on our you know, a normal product.

Yogesh  37:23

So, basically, Krishna from clean water nation to in India still in specially in the market, they always see, insurance have to be like a kind of a return of premium kind of a product jahan pai Mai how much I have paid and how much I have received back. And still the mentality goes up protection if something does not go very well with the psychology of, especially the SME Indians or the workforce, the workforce. But when we actually try when we are trying to solve the healthcare problem, we're in it for kind of a dashboard, where the employer is able to see all this and see how much they're saving my employee had done on their medicine course, or on their health checkups. Or if they have actually had to go to a doctor and have to spend like a 500 rupees in, in a consulting, but they have actually got it at a fee, of course, and these are items, high volume use cases, which actually will happen in almost all the kinds of the computers, everyone will at least get some fever and fools will lead to order some kind of kind of a medicine and this particular platform, what we are creating it out caters to all the different healthcare space, and where we are trying to bring all the different services. Yeah, fortunately, unfortunately, India understand healthcare to be only insurance, but it's it is not as per the global standard, and just we are trying to solve also one of the problems that don't let's make it healthcare more comprehensive.

Krishna Jonnakadla  39:01

So I'm, I'm a bit puzzled guys. The normal approach would be even for a very large corporate in India, let's say you work for a blue chip organization, the blue chip organization, what it tells you is you have x, this is your comp, this is the salary you get, these are the XYZ benefits that you get, oh, by the way, we tied up with the x organization for healthcare. This is the premium, the the ones that still support parents as dependents, which are the still benign now or benevolent organizations still allow you to add your extended family most of them have stripped it down to your immediate spouse and your children. Okay? So in that even in that case, no matter who they have that insurance policy with all the things that you're talking about doesn't practically exist. If if the policy somehow has a network where it provides Are those diagnostic diagnostics at a discount or consultation at a discount through a network? So it still begs the question why you launch for the SME market? As opposed to the big corporate market? Because it would it would look like the big corporate would almost be able to take whatever basic benefits they have, from a healthcare perspective, all the way, like two or three notches up just by aligning with you guys. Why? Why go towards ni and I am really curious now, why you chose the SME segment is SME segment. Are you playing super long game where you're where you're telling yourself, I said that Sal may have stopped when young eisah? Or? Or is there some other thinking going on here?

Yogesh  40:54

Krishna, The answer lies in a secret. So all the big corporates provide some form of identification. And right there. And everyone claims means no matter what means all the organization, which actually provide a product called the big corporates, they actually came that they give all the services. So for them to going to that particular market is not an opportunity for....

Krishna Jonnakadla  41:24

I kind of differ with they kind of offering something and really offering something or two separate things because somebody can say, okay, I've tied up with XYZ through their network, you get all of this, but you and you and I know that that is the reality is far from that, from that from that claim, isn't it a how it actually works on ground? Is is what that matters, and it should matter more to them. But But I'll let you continue.

Yogesh  41:51

 So yeah, so Krishna on that particular path. As I mentioned, to the city, the procurement team has a big corporate pay. Okay, see, this is the checklist Okay, done done done, all these services are done. Now tell me what is the cost and Okay, your cost is like one lakh rupees or your costume like five lakh rupees, and happy to pay you like a full life all the entire market will go after the large corporate and which results in like an unsustainable unit economics for all the suppliers in that ecosystem. So, this is where again, because the over in that particular market, the supply there is an oversupply that is there. And still the demand is restricted because only I would say 8 crore lives are actually associated with large corporates. And still like the rest 135 crore odd people are still not further working under the large corporate sector. So, just imagine the opportunity that is there in our mind, which is like a pro versus like 127 or an eight crore people, definitely there will be someone who will come, who will be much who will be much bigger than on surety, like Amazons of the world would come and completely disrupt the market. But for us, given that the market is fragmented, and we really want to focus, that's why we are trying to target and try to keep both papers to work those models.

Kulin  43:19

And just to add to that, just to add to that, is that, you know, for for a corporate, right, if I go and tell the person Listen, I'm gonna get you discounted medicines, and discounted health checkups. Like Listen, my people can afford it. Right? So if you're gonna give them like a, you know, a 15% discount doesn't matter to them, because, you know, they have the, you know, they have this kind of incomes and all right, or for an SME, right? If you're able to save for that person, say, you know, 100 rupees or 200 rupees, right? That's a fairly good amount for them. And they like that, that savings, right? Think about it, that they can actually get a superspeciality teleconsultation, let's say 99 rupees, right? a corporate will be like, it doesn't matter, right? Even if I have to spend like 1000 rupees, as an I'm okay, it's my house, I'm gonna spend it right. And hence, if you let the kind of value that we can add, right? And the amount of stickiness that you can get, because people will appreciate the product we at least have an initial hypothesis is that no, we can kind of you know, go behind that market. And like you rightly said, he's a Marwadi and Gujarati we are in for the long run.

Krishna Jonnakadla  44:22

But I I will also debunk your claims, guys. So Marwadis and Gujaratis, are very smart about short term business as well. The the, I'm sure there is some smart economics behind it. Because once you start, just like let's say sachet economics, right, that's a whole different economics altogether. With the SMEs. It is not price matters, but only up to a point because you're literally like an oasis in the middle of a desert. They don't have too many options, and some of the ones that do want to offer And there are several quality firms today in the SMB, SMB market. In fact, the travel firm kind of a business that I contrast it is possibly even in a much, much smaller market. We have a fairly good sized manufacturing organization. We have fairly good sized service organizations today, there's decent scale in amongst these companies. But they have been underserved. They're in that middle that nobody talks about, nobody discusses. But I think the day we start seeing focus on them, a lot of them that are 400-500 people, organizations will become 20,000-30,000 people, organizations, they are capable. The ones that the people at the helm of these businesses that run it, for their lifestyle will be booted out, and people that run it as a professional business will will grow them. So let's jump before we jump into the scale story, Yogesh Was it you who led Kulin, and I'm suspecting that's the case, because this is more of this more, this seems to be drawing from both your strengths, because it's not an insurance product. I mean, it's not insurance is part of it, but it's not predominantly insurance. And for the amount of time Kulin was Freechrage your first job.

Kulin  46:25

No, no. So I started actually, with Aditya Birla where I was a part of their group management training program, then data, then I was a venture capitalist, venture capital professional for almost a half years and did my own startup for three years. And then I went to Freecharge.

Krishna Jonnakadla  46:40

Okay, so in all of it, I'm, I'm quite certain I go out on a limb and say, your most exciting time perhaps was at Freecharge. Right and ever since 2012-13. wallets have taken off. That's been an exciting, exciting business. But it is interesting that you completely jumped on to a different path not not to say that. I'm sure all of the growth that you had is there, you're going you're working on recreating that here. And all the methods that you learned there, you're going to focus on here. But what is it that was so alluring about this that the two of you decided to forge a completely new line altogether? And how did the two of you come together?

Kulin  47:30

Krishna? Krishna, you want a fancy answer? You want a boring answer?

Krishna Jonnakadla  47:36

 I want the real answer.

Kulin  47:37

Okay, then that's the boring one.

Yogesh  47:38

yeah, let me give you the boring answer. So what had happened, Krishna, that I was in the market and the investors to whom I was talking to was really interested, and what is the kind of the idea that you're pursuing and I was pursuing, and they were actually understood that this could be like a great potential. But I would say that they told me categorically that you're good, the idea is good, the kind of product that you're going to develop, we understand that we will be able to deliver it out. But we really see a gap in your teeth, which is like for someone to come up and do like a broad form. And, and I'm talking about this somewhere like January and January, Jan 2020. And at that time, I was actually talking to a couple of my other friends come and join me as a performer. Because the term sheet was almost on the table. I will be candid about it, the term sheet was on the table, but with the category that I need to find a co founder, because when is the kind of getting some kind of complementary skills to my skill set. And the second one, again, it's always to have good means ideally, given that it was my first startup. So I really, really realized after talking to investors that they really bang on two heads, they don't want to pull it their risk into one single lead. And this is how I started pursuing another co founder, talk to a couple of my friends. And again, one of them was pretty unclean at that time was trying to take a sabbatical and where he was planning us for some travel. And it was somewhere like, first week of February, and I tried to convince me he said that after coming up after coming back from the US, I will evaluate but yeah, I'm happy to help you how much I can in order to connect with connect you with the right kind of a team member or with the right other folks put for your kind of an enterprise what you're building. Then suddenly the COVID breakdown. Corona happens travel restriction started around, and then... So

Kulin  49:52

I was left without a job. And he kind of told me Listen, you're not going to get a job any whichway and COVID lockdown happen. And so, you know, I've taken a sabbatical in the past also, for personal reasons. So my wife was in New York. And, you know, in the right in the middle of demonetization, when the wallets are really picking up, I said, Listen, I'm gonna, you know, jump off from this ship, however exciting it is I went to the US for almost like, seven to eight months. This is between December 16 and August 17. Right. My sister currently resides in New York. So I was like, okay, you know, what, this recipe, and I've done my bit at ACKO. Now leave, go and spend some time with her travel was a positive not mean in the US. And but but obviously, you know, COVID happened. And, you know, I was not going to be traveling for some time. I think that's when you know, Yogesh and I said, Okay, know, what you can possibly know, try something like this out. And yeah, that's the boring story that we have for how we got together. But yeah.

Krishna Jonnakadla  51:01

What what would you have told me if I had asked for the interesting?

Kulin  51:05

 As for the interesting one, I would have said, you know, oh, you know, what is a great market and no other product that you would have not really no one behind it? We had no idea how we are going to crack this one believe me, there was no idea. Right.

Yogesh  51:18

 So we were knowing that there is something that is missing on the supply, and there is some demand, how much the demand would be how much the supply, how the supply would be cracked, completely clueless.

Kulin  51:31

The back of the napkin stories, and all we could have possibly told you. But yeah, that's what happened.

Yogesh  51:37

Basically, we know from my personal experience, and from couple of 50-60 surveys, which I conducted, whether SME will purchase or not, but 50-60 sample, maybe there was a kind of knew that. Okay, there could be like a lot of work that needs to be done. But he just was having some idea that Yeah, there is a demand that is there, and there is no supply. That is that's it.

Krishna Jonnakadla  52:01

So so then let's jump into the scale question. But answer the funding questions for me very, very rarely happens that unless the opportunity is so compelling, and the founder, the person behind it is so compelling, that you end up in a situation like you did, where there's a term sheet on the conditional term sheet on the table, which says, Okay, go acquire because you still don't have a tech co founder, right? Because there is quite a bit of technology behind it that will be there required in the days to come. So I'm sure there is a boring story behind that funding thing to how the term sheet happened. Talk about that.

Yogesh  52:43

Basically, Krishna, you have....

Krishna Jonnakadla  52:46

How did you present to them, because if the service the 60-70 watt service, and for somebody like Nexus they have, it's not like they do have good data. While this is no an inch deep about a mile wide number of industries, we the founders that are working on an industry know much more deeper than that. Right? So but what is it that really turned for you?

Yogesh  53:11

Krishna Basically, volume is the kind of the untapped market. If I talked with the numbers, any kind of tea, I'm talking about the low and middle income countries in the world. So their numbers compared to what India is, like insurance is like out of pocket expenses has been spent. It's like PVR, like almost like 70%, behind even from the low end. So effectively, there is a huge, huge potential market that was there. So this is basically all the VCs arguing about. Now the second part is the they really try to bang on the model. In terms of at that time, what kind of experience what I was bringing onto the table, I understand data a lot means building a lot of good predictive model scalable models, which can run on cloud and can actually predict the results or the fly was like something I've literally enjoy. Secondly, I enjoy creating products, and specifically risk products. And in the past itself, where I have designed products, which was completely completely new to the market might be definitely would be the customer of that particular product I can see. But those particular products were completely unique, which iron other team members of mine had resigned at that point. So this kind of a thing. Definitely the investor advocate of it. Of course, from the technology angle again, they've also I would say, but they always try to do with the kind of experience what I was building, bringing onto the table. It was like 4g technology. The guide because in technology we actually classify for up to three problem, what is what is my back end solution? How my front end will look like and how my data could be get structured. So these are the three technology layers. Of course, I was having some experience on the third level data structures data management part on the front end, no through backend, it still having given that there was a white correlation between the backend and the data lead. So that is what, whenever they asked some technology question, I will be able to answer that. But the growth part, this is where I have never bro never had grown kind of any kind of product from it's like zero to one. So that's why the mandate was very clear that this is the second guy.

Kulin  55:57

We go to see even in our investors background, right? They have kind of solved an SME problem when it came to e commerce to Snapeals. Right. They had, you know, they have a had a couple of lending companies, which they have kind of an SME was there. Right? I think I think no, of the healthcare piece is something that was missing for them. And I think we had an I think it's, we had a no international investment in a company called overhead. Right. And I think they wanted to kind of know, if not the same, but you know, some sort of a healthcare portfolio in India. I think that's where they kind of saw this, you know, things marrying, and I think that's where, you know, we felt that, you know, they were a right partner, as it is now we see that they are the right partner for us. So yeah.

Krishna Jonnakadla  56:48

So talk bout the scale journey a bit. So from the 60-70, odd service, how have you grown it, what has been the methods that you've adopted, what have been the tactics that have worked for you.

Yogesh  57:00

So basically, all the 60-70 survey's, or just the three problems, what were mentioned, working capital for no worry, and confusion, and basically full of product. And again, one more problem was the compliance, how it will be like the ease of doing business. So the problem statement was very, very clear that these are the four things that you need to take money. So we started designing a product. So and I think, for us, what really has helped us to scale. It's like a product product, what we have been able to design it out and how we have created the technology layer around it, if you will, it's the first in kind of a monthly membership, to the it's all the working after, before an employer if he had to purchase a product for a 10 member, he needs to spend at least like a one lakh 20,000 rupees outside, but in our platform, it is as cheaper as 10,000 to start with. So it's all the working capital problem, we effectively giving them a product which is like a 20% cheaper than the competition, or 20%. I would not say competition, but 20% cheaper than the next available alternative automatically, if you if we break it down on a monthly basis. The second one worked, it really worked well. It's like a zero compliance. It's a two minute process, give us the GST number through data through technology, we understand what were the SMEs, what kind of an industry he's working with, etc, etc. And within two minutes either on his entire So basically, it's more like a challenger to have one month process, which is where the The third thing again, employee turnover. So we have created a kind of a platform which runs like an Amazon, Avi billing. So basically, if the employees there, so we charge it charge our membership cost will based on mandates. So if the employees there and had worked with you, it charges the employer otherwise, if the employee needs, we do a kind of a proportionate refund or a proportionate charge for that. So this is how we really solve these three problems, and apart from the offerings that we have.

Kulin  59:25

Some of growth perspectives, right. I think these things put together another time and when we kind of ignited the market, right, while the market was you know, shutting itself to any kind of new purchases, cash is king kind of a thing was happening, right. small monthly products really kind of, you know, resonated with people seeing the lesson. Okay, you know, till such time that I'm not going to be back to work or, you know, we're going to be back on our feet. You know, we need to take care of our people right? Or two things because, you know, this was a time when we became really a human in a lot ways right. I'm sure you would have also done Bartan jhadu pocha at your house, similar to me that you have done. Right. That's the time when it really started. Listen, you know, what people who work with you who works along with, you know, they do deserve? You know, that kind of support? Right? I think that's where we kind of went to the market. And we saw that we could connect with people. And people could connect with us because of these small, small, you know, product features that we've got, like a monthly, you know, a building that is, you know, like, Yogesh mentioned, right. utilization based billing, right. I think that is something that really helped us to kind of, and previously preferred what 25 to 30% of our business coming through only two referrals today, right, people keep referring us everywhere. And we just as India, and that's kind of really worked well, for us.

Yogesh  1:00:47

I think, for us, the goal was like we really helped to a lot of SMEs to bring back from work. Also, fortunately, unfortunately, we were being able to actually help the couple of businesses in order to scale down their team, because a couple of them were very clear that we are happy to scale it down to give some kind of an ROI for some time. For the product, how we have designed it out, become like a sachet kind of a product, which helps the SME at all.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:01:23

So you take all of this health benefits or the health plan, you provide it on a monthly basis. And during the time of the pandemic, if they needed to downsize. So let's say they had a 50 member team. And today, they came down to 20. The other 30 that were not really getting paid, they still had access to these benefits. That was the retention plan for the remaining remaining people. But but but that, but let's talk about the launch itself, March 2020, was around the time we actually went into lockdown. And you guys actually launched in the middle of that either. This hole will help you retain the ones that you are you have to temporarily let go or was one of the tactics that work. But quite frankly, the whole country literally came to a standstill at that point in time. 75 days was how long the lockdown was. It mustn't have been easy. It was either only 99% of it was not easy. Only 1% of let's say like fruits, vegetables, essentials, you know, they all made merry. I know if people extended family that's made tons of money in essentials. But how was your journey at that time? When did growth really started happening? 500 organizations and 70,000 families that you touching, all of that cannot come from product, people should need to know that you have a product. And you know, awareness, awareness and marketing is that what have been some things that have worked? How was the beginning?

Yogesh  1:03:00

We are helping SMEs to get back the workforce ,somewhere like July -August was kind of something like schooling for us where you were helping a lot of SMEs might be those SMEs are mandated by other large vendors for me they were working with or basically they need to start with it could be like a restaurant owner, who need to call their employees from other parts of the India all the migrant workers and for them it again, restarting the business. And by calling all the employees was like already this thing around and with our products, wherever we bought the kind of the clients that that buying the product, they literally said us that he really wanted to bring our employees back, they were completely scared that how if they suppose something wrong happens to them, or if they suppose they need any kind of a medicine or they need any checkups, how those particular things will happen. And this is how our product at that time, what we will least check boxes, all the things what the SME was reading, and this is worth, I would say that has happened to be our roots. We have not spend a lot of money on kind of a market. It's all about what I mentioned. you're someone who use that as a kind of chain of reasoning. Just connect with the mantra was simple. We will help your workforce to join back.

Kulin  1:04:37

 And from a growth perspective. Whoever was not in tech was in business, right? Everyone was calling businesses. Everyone was telling them what was right. There was no way to kind of, you know, create, you know, a brand recognition for yourself because there are multiple things that are happening out there. Right. So we just told Everyone in the company, if you are not tech you are selling, right? We have kind of called up 1000s of SMEs and just told them listen, you don't buy right now don't buy right now that is okay. Right? Just hear us out. Like, if you ever need something, we are there for you. Right? And, and we completely believe in one thing that you know, don't sell right, problem solved, right? And these are some of the learnings that we always take him back saying that listen, what is the problem statement? One is I The intent is their product not available and hence solve the problem of not making the right product. Right. problem statement is how do I get people back money might not be always the thing, right? I can if if I increase 1000 rupees in salary per month, will the person want to still come back? Right. But the perceived value for healthcare program, right, as a more as a more appeal to a single Okay, now what if something happens? My employer might be there to help me out by giving such benefits. Right. And I think and and i think that that old thought process of problem solving instead of selling today, also, we see a lot of people, you know, in this space, kind of, you know, always talking about, you know, selling, selling, selling, right, using Listen, don't think that we just think about problem solving. We said no to a lot of SMEs, right? We said well go to them because we said listen, we don't fit your you don't fit your Sony, right, possibly, we are not the best partners at this point of time. Right? We have said no to people, right, but the people whom we have kind of able to solve, they still stick around.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:06:29

So guys, the Indian medical system has a lot of hidden and open inefficiencies. Some of what you're trying to do means that perhaps I'm just guessing out here, that you will have to strike your own pricing contracts, yo will have to strike your own pricing deals, when you're getting consultation from Super specialty hospitals, the medicine part perhaps is maybe not maybe not that tough. Because a lot of larger chains today offer anywhere between 15 to 20%. I'm not taking away the benefit of that for a moment. But the institutional support is far more different. How did you go about putting that together?

Kulin  1:07:13

So from that perspective, right, we have, you know, obviously done some tie ups in the ecosystem, we are kind of, you know, single Listen, not everyday to be required, someone who is going to, you know, keep asking for cardiologist, not everyday, someone who's going to ask for a neurologist, right. But you cannot, you know, you know, set up a discussion with a few of them, get them on board and say, Listen, you know, in case someone does require, right, you know, we would love to kind of get your opinion out here. Right? So we are like, we are kind of getting this and we will build it to scale. Right. But today, at this point of time, we are also kind of seeing that, you know, what are the possible solutions available in the market? Right? And can we bring them in our back end and data marketplace of our own? Right? And then kind of then start giving this because there are a lot of pockets today, even in the digital ecosystem where there are a lot of products, but they're in pockets. Right? Can we create a? Can we stitch the experience together? Right? On shirt is all about customer experience at the end of the day? Right? Not necessarily that we have to reinvent the weak, right? But can we kind of miss ditch that experience and say that lesson if you are getting something is getting the onshore experience, right? So that has also been one of the thought processes of kind of scaling up faster, never reinvent, go behind what is available in the market, but we have your own experience layer on top.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:08:37

So So you've aggregated other solutions as well, you snuck your own pricing agreement.

Kulin  1:08:42

Yeah, it's a combination of both To be honest.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:08:44

Interesting, awesome, guys. This has been a fabulous conversation. I cannot for a moment, for sure. But not not even a year old, maybe just scratching the year. This, this is incredible progress for a year. And you both don't come across as the hot shots, you know, that we are supposed to be for being for creating growth like this. So more power to you. So what's in store? Then? What's the next now that you may be getting closer to Basecamp? what's what's the next peak? That you're trying to scale? What's the next big peak for you and for the team at the company?

Kulin  1:09:26

The next thing that we want to do is definitely kind of, you know, start looking into gather and focus more on the customer experience. Because we have a sizable number like you said, right? It is for us we feel that you know we are overwhelmed with the kind of good response that we got. And but we don't want to kind of let our customers down at this time. So the next big thing is kind of know what's on the entire experience part of it. Right? at any stage. Our customers, our family members should not have an issue. You know, while I know you're making the most out of the on surety platform, right? And hence, I think the next set of, you know, innovation or optimization or scaling will happen on the product side, right, where we are going to kind of invest a lot on the customer experience. And we seen that, you know, after a point of time, possibly, you know, we should have more organic growth than you know, you know, then we kind of, you know, pushing the product out there. We're trying to kind of create those kinds of flywheels now, and yeah, I think the next set of is going to be to kind of also see that, you know, how our experience has been kind of similar the last one year, and what are the modifications we need to do on the product side, so I think, now on, I think growth will come if you have a great product. So hence, it's all only about building the right consumer experience and the right product. on your own.

Yogesh  1:10:44

Yeah, so Krishna argue, on this particular site, everything boils down to me, because the traditional world has like a very good does not have a very good customer experience when it comes to healthcare. And we will be and because, again, I would say from my experience, it will be definitely not the lack of intent, but the lack of the technology and the technology to solve to identify those problems to solve, if we are being able to create another kind of customer experience thing, then definitely, the product will automatically scale, because we are able to create a huge, huge gap between our experience experience that is available in the alternative is something that can really trigger the growth factor. Because when it comes to the healthcare, the kind of the thought process of an individual or a company is that nothing should go wrong, nothing should go wrong, because if nothing, if anything goes wrong, it could create like a huge impact on the brand on the on the company's brand or on the individual's life or on their family's life. And that can only get watered titled by the technology is by bringing by giving the right customer experience. So we both are actually I would say it might not be up to the mod for the Maharaja story. But we are really targeting not growth first, but really target like experience for us. Because we know that the rupee the output of the experience.

Kulin  1:12:21

 I think the Maharaja out here is the customer experience, which will help us to scale.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:12:26

 So I'm very glad to have you for a moment. When Yogesh started pitching in or picking off where you left. Kulin, I was thinking he was going to say something that was going to sound nice and a little bit contradictory. But I'm happy that both of you said experience that indicates that you guys have your priorities, right, at least from the perch that where I can look at a lot of companies would say let's just we have a VC behind us, let's just go after growth, growth growth. But at some point in time, if the fundamentals are not in place, good growth can only be counterproductive, it can be the Achilles heel of the organization. There's one aspect about healthcare, though that doesn't get discussed widely. The Indian healthcare ecosystem is fraught with all kinds of rent seekers and all kinds of bad capitals. And I'm speaking about that sitting in the south here. There is enough political fraud and scam that has been done in the name of healthcare. And a lot of it stems from two reasons. One is there is this penchant amongst people that health should not be something that having a father who has MS diagnostics and medical malpractice who's been paralyzed for the last 2019 years, I know, I have lived through and continue to live through what the cost of medical outcome going wrong can be. So I do not really feel that for a second. But what has happened is this whole notion that nobody wants to get health wrong, and has has has enabled healthcare institutions to actually exploit people to a very great degree, right? For instance, today, I'm one of the few people who still keeps getting amazed by the fact that if you get into get into an ICU for a day, the price you pay is dependent on whether you came from a general Ward or semi private war, or or have a private Ward or even a luxury ward. It's the same ICU, same bed, same position, but the price that you pay differs vastly, even in a so called five star hotel. Granted, you may have paid when 80% of the hotel was full versus 20% of the hotel was full, there is some method to the madness. Hear hear there is no method to the madness. It's a lot of it is dictated by greed, per se. And it is. And a study, actually a study of healthcare ethics points that sauteing institutions in South are a lot more better than institutions elsewhere in the country. And you and I consistently get shocked by the amount of I would say unfair practices in mostly they're borderline unethical. They're not illegal. And a lot of it is because in, in the unique culture adopters are equated with Gods because of their ability to heal you. We blindly take their word for it. But I but I do hope that, you know, there's some organization that comes in and starts pushing, and nobody's saying, and the other extreme would be to socialize all of this and make government pay for it. That's the wrong solution.

Yogesh  1:15:55


Krishna Jonnakadla  1:15:56

So people, we keep, we seem to think it's either this, this end of hell or that end of hell. And I don't think, again, we ignore the middle here as well. So I think it's, somebody has to strike a happy balance. I, I don't want to name the portal, but there's a portal which is scaled massively in healthcare, right. I respect what they have done. But But I hope at some point in time, experience also means putting out data to say, Okay, how many of how many of their diagnosis are actually right? How many of their patients actually get treated for the right things, I give you an example. There's a family member that used to consult in a nursing home, very senior family member who's led medical associations in the country. He has he had been practicing in this hospital for the last 35 years. In the last two years, that hospital changed hands, it changed ownership. The new owners is a husband and wife. Both of them are doctors, their modus operandi is, if somebody comes in with a smaller problem, they diagnose it with something larger, yeah, give them steroids. And in about two to three days, they feel good for a day or two. But what the steroid has actually been doing is not acting on the cause, but actually the symptom. So in three or four days, that problem actually becomes bigger. And that person comes in for a larger procedure, why, from what I understand, the wife is, has a penchant for luxury goods, they want to travel around in large, yellow cards, very expensive cards, and go shopping around practically every day, take a international vacation every two months. So so that I it may be an extreme case, but what's happening is at some point in time, I think, transparency of data ranking of healthcare institutions, and making sure that because it cannot come from a drug for at least drug prices, there is a controller of drugs in India, but for healthcare, while there is a healthcare system, but it's still still the Wild West, but I hope somewhere it's there in your market, sorry, roadmap.

Yogesh  1:18:20

Krishna that is what the experienced one of the portion of the wealth of experience. So what we see is healthcare value. Healthcare value is nothing but the optimized equation for quality of the healthcare and the cost. So it's neither optimized on the past nor it's either nor it optimized for the quality it was it optimized for both of the parameter and this is what the two beta it can get solved. Of course, on surety could not be the only entity you would be solving this healthcare value in the value chain. But definitely when we are designing the product, when we are designing how exactly we can optimize or create a better healthcare value, not only for our customers, but our their direct and indirect competitors. And this is what the experience counts for us. Because if we are being able to, because ultimately, this this particular thing, the incident what we have mentioned, we always encounter those incidents in our personal life in our professional life. And this is where what we know that with a very, very handful number of thought that happens. Of course there are like very, very good hospitals that are there in the country which still believe on this healthcare value, how exactly we can inform our customers, their family members who actually cherry pick those hospitals. And this can be only possible through data to read. And again, there will be other providers who will come up optimize it for but I think the new healthcare a new healthcare for or India will definitely try to solve this particular problem. I will say that this problem has become like what you have mentioned, what the problem of the airlines are very present. But it wasn't one where the prices of the airline and the hotels were completely ambiguous, it was not transparent. And there are startups like I mean, he was he who had success with all the problem and has also empowered agents to solve this particular problem. So I think, again, that part of the problem of the of the travel app versus the healthcare is still uncomfortable, because healthcare is still like a life and death thing. But definitely there will be like some some like good startups who definitely try to solve this particular problem. And definitely onshore, it will be contributing a bit on to that problem to solve.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:20:53

Yeah, I know, once you bring in the bringing bring in volumes, will also make a difference because then you're not just serving a sliver of the population you're serving the larger one. So when you couple volume with data and information and awareness, it It forces people to change their will still be the stubborn, obstinate ones that won't change, you know, they'll go down hard, but the rest of them will see the writing on the wall and say, I think the environment is changing mahaol badal raha hai so jo puranae tareeka humnae istemal kiya hai woh ab nahi chalega. So awesome, fantastic, guys, this has been an awesome conversation, we know you will, you know, scale scale, greater peaks. And when you are scaling, when you scale, the next week managers of scale will be back with you to see what that journey has been like what have been some new learnings and what have been some new impact that you've cost. Any closing comments that the two of you would like to add?

Kulin  1:21:51

We always end with any one single in case you and your teams need a health care, you know, Onsurity, it is here. And we'd love to kind of serve your team members. So I think yeah, we are always selling at the end of the day. So yeah, let us know if we can solve your problem of healthcare for your employees on short is there for you.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:22:13

We'll just put it up for our listeners, all the entrepreneurs and companies that are building, you know, maybe there's a special plan you can offer them.

Kulin  1:22:21

Absolutely. So let's do this one thing, we're going to create a code called maharaja15. Okay, and I'm gonna give like, of discount of 15% for the next three months, right on, if anyone kind of applies maharajas15, that's the first thing that you know, will go out of this room and do is read that code and give it to you. And any of your listeners who kind of come up with that code will get a 15% discount on the first three months of subscription for their employees.

Krishna Jonnakadla  1:22:48

Certainly. Awesome, awesome, guys. We can do that. Great chatting with you, and we wish you the very best.

Yogesh  1:22:55


Kulin  1:22:58

We hope you enjoyed the story. If this story made a difference to you. Tell us by leaving a comment on the website or our social media channels. help us spread the love by subscribing, liking and sharing our show. We welcome speaker suggestions and collaboration. Write me at